D&D General Alternate thought - rule of cool is bad for gaming

I feel like when we hold on too tightly to the rules we are missing out on the true wonder of the game. My group always defers to the DM for the final say in the moment so that he can maintain the consistency as it’s happening. After the session all things are open for debate and it’s not uncommon for the whole group to agree to a ret-con or rewrite.

We once had a session grind to a halt because someone came up with something so mind boggling that no one knew how to handle the situation. The DM finally made a judgment call and we moved on.

By all means; take your game seriously but always keep in mind it’s not only just a game but it's a game you hope everyone wants to keep playing.

Hmmm. This is going to come across probably negative, but regarding that last: if someone has sufficiently incompatible play-style with the rest of the group, I may very well just as soon they don't want to keep playing, as their attempt to shape the game in their image may be making it less enjoyable for everyone else. They may not even mean any harm by it; it simply may be the nature of their play. If the game isn't to suit them, and they can't adapt to what its offering, its probably better they find somewhere else for everyone.
 

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I feel like when we hold on too tightly to the rules we are missing out on the true wonder of the game. My group always defers to the DM for the final say in the moment so that he can maintain the consistency as it’s happening. After the session all things are open for debate and it’s not uncommon for the whole group to agree to a ret-con or rewrite.

We once had a session grind to a halt because someone came up with something so mind boggling that no one knew how to handle the situation. The DM finally made a judgment call and we moved on.

By all means; take your game seriously but always keep in mind it’s not only just a game but it's a game you hope everyone wants to keep playing.
If it’s the RAW, the whole RAW, and nothing but the RAW we might as well be playing video games. Having the human referee there to make rulings and allow for shenanigans is one of the things that makes RPGs unique. To actively push that aside is to cast off a defining feature of RPGs.
 

If it’s the RAW, the whole RAW, and nothing but the RAW we might as well be playing video games. Having the human referee there to make rulings and allow for shenanigans is one of the things that makes RPGs unique. To actively push that aside is to cast off a defining feature of RPGs.
I really hate this attitude, precisely because I feel like it misses other primary strengths of RPGs; they're unbounded in play time, can provide way more points of interaction than a video game, and are very, get way to create new content for. There's plenty of reasons to want to play a TTRPG without having resolution undefined.
 

I really hate this attitude, precisely because I feel like it misses other primary strengths of RPGs; they're unbounded in play time, can provide way more points of interaction than a video game, and are very, get way to create new content for. There's plenty of reasons to want to play a TTRPG without having resolution undefined.
It’s not an undefined resolution. It’s acknowledging you can’t reasonably have rules for everything. Trying to leads to never really getting to play because you have to constantly stop play to look up rules. You will inevitably have gaps in the rules. That’s what the human referee is there to do, make calls. Saying you don’t want the referee making calls is intentionally tossing out the uniqueness of RPGs. Yes, those other points are true and they’re true because you have a referee there making calls.

“I want it all spelled out ahead of time in black and white so I know exactly what’s what and no deviation allowed.” Yeah, you want a video game not a tabletop RPG.

It’s the same old weird argument. People trust the referee to create the world, create the monsters, create every NPC in the cosmos, run the adventure, distribute treasure, roll fair, math right, and everything else the referee needs to do…but for some reason determining what to roll to jump on a monster’s back is somehow a bridge too far.

“It’ll be chaos! The referee can’t be trusted.”

It’s just your typical Saturday night at the table playing RPGs. Relax. Trust the referee. If they were out to get you they could get you with two words. “You’re dead.” Did they do that? No? Then relax.
 
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you can’t reasonably have rules for everything.
And yet Apocalypse World does.

It’s just your typical Saturday night at the table playing RPGs. Relax. Trust the referee. If they were out to get you they could get you with two words. “You’re dead.” Did they do that? No? Then relax.
Trusting the referee is a red herring. If I wanted the referee's vision of the fiction to be determinate, I'd ask them to tell me a story.
 

And yet Apocalypse World does.

Trusting the referee is a red herring. If I wanted the referee's vision of the fiction to be determinate, I'd ask them to tell me a story.
I've never played Apocalypse World, how do they do it?

Because what bugs me is that D&D has guidance as well. What some people keep calling rule of cool is just following the rules of the game. If outcome is uncertain, make an ability check adding appropriate proficiency if applicable. Throw in advantage or disadvantage if it makes sense. Done.
 

It’s not an undefined resolution. It’s acknowledging you can’t reasonably have rules for everything.
You cannot have individual, singular rules for everything. Everyone leaves out that part: the idea that, if you have a different situation, you necessarily have different rules for each one. That, I completely agree, is not merely unreasonable, it's impossible. No system of individual, singular rules could ever be totally comprehensive.

That's why you abandon the need for every situation to have a singular, individual rules expression. You embrace the fact that rules are always abstractions, and put that abstraction to work for you. My preferred expression of that is what I call "extensible framework" rules. Skill Challenges are one example of this concept. "Montage" sequences are another. What I've heard of Blades in the Dark's rules sounds like another example. DW's moves like Undertake a Perilous Journey, Supply, Carouse, and even basic ones like Discern Realities, Spout Lore, and Defy Danger (probably the single most commonly-used move) are all examples of extensible frameworks: using one core, abstracted structure, you can cover essentially anything within the particular scope of that move. If it makes sense as a journey from one place to another that could be dangerous and uncertain, then that move is pretty much guaranteed to work, or at least be an extremely good starting point with some minor tweaking (e.g. it's perfectly applicable for ocean voyages with light tweaking, but might need some creativity if applied to a vision-quest type "journey into the mind" thing).

I've never played Apocalypse World, how do they do it?
I haven't played AW, but I have played DW, and it's reasonably close.

Firstly, as noted above...many of the moves are abstract. This is the text of Undertake a Perilous Journey:

When you travel through hostile territory, choose one member of the party to act as trailblazer, one to scout ahead, and one to be quartermaster (the same character cannot have two jobs). If you don’t have enough party members or choose not to assign a job, treat that job as if it had rolled a 6. Each character with a job to do rolls+WIS. On a 10+ the quartermaster reduces the number of rations required by one. On a 10+ the trailblazer reduces the amount of time it takes to reach your destination (the GM will say by how much). On a 10+ the scout will spot any trouble quick enough to let you get the drop on it. On a 7–9 each roles performs their job as expected: the normal number of rations are consumed, the journey takes about as long as expected, no one gets the drop on you but you don’t get the drop on them either.​

As usual, rolls are 2d6+MOD, in this case, WIS. (Three-letter abbreviations are always the modifier; if you use the full word, it's the total score. A very nice convention.) 7-9 is partial success, 10+ is full success. The rule is pretty abstract, because all the concrete details come from whatever fiction prompted the bold trigger: travel through hostile territory. Likewise, the reason is irrelevant; only the things needed to resolve the trigger are relevant.

DW has really excellent extensible design like this. Defy Danger is literally a single move for all possible "you're in trouble, how will you get out?" situations, be they combat, exploration, social, moral, magical, whatever, it's your one-stop-shop. That's what makes it so commonly rolled. And the results are simple. 10+, you're in the clear. 7-9, "you stumble, hesitate, or flinch: The GM will offer you a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice." Meaning, it's not a total loss...but you're scraping through, not sailing. 6-, you're gonna have a bad time. Damage, or something equally nasty (splitting the party, revealing an unwelcome truth, showing a downside to their playbook/moves/etc., or some other Bad Result).

By moving away from rules that need to give each individual situation its own singular rule, you can cover huge swathes with very few rules. The "basic" and "advanced" moves of DW, that is the generic ones any character can make use of, fit on two sides of a single sheet. And using the formats presented by those moves and others in the default playbooks, it's nearly effortless to create new moves in the same vein.

Because what bugs me is that D&D has guidance as well. What some people keep calling rule of cool is just following the rules of the game. If outcome is uncertain, make an ability check adding appropriate proficiency if applicable. Throw in advantage or disadvantage if it makes sense. Done.
I would argue that the major difference between the mere (and IMO not very good, but you already know that) guidance in 5e and the "real" (again, IMO) Rule of Cool is that the guidance there is just to make rules logjams less likely to happen; the Rule of Cool is about ensuring that what is fun (if reasonable) does not get trumped by what is predefined. "If it's uncertain, roll" is not at all the same as "don't say 'there's no rules for improvised flight, so you can't,' say 'let's figure out how this would work, because I love that idea and there aren't any rules covering this' instead."
 

... I would argue that the major difference between the mere (and IMO not very good, but you already know that) guidance in 5e and the "real" (again, IMO) Rule of Cool is that the guidance there is just to make rules logjams less likely to happen; the Rule of Cool is about ensuring that what is fun (if reasonable) does not get trumped by what is predefined. "If it's uncertain, roll" is not at all the same as "don't say 'there's no rules for improvised flight, so you can't,' say 'let's figure out how this would work, because I love that idea and there aren't any rules covering this' instead."

I agree that we can't have explicit rules for everything. However, I also think that the way 5E handles things can be fun. It's the presentation and approach that makes it enjoyable. It's also something where my goals as DM have never really changed, even if the exact implementation and style has been modified and evolved over the years. It's also something they will hopefully spend more time on in the new DMG.

I guess I just don't see how the DW rules while having a slightly different approach is really that different. Yes, it's a different die, a different modifier, perhaps multiple rolls. But it's still "roll the dice and add modifiers as appropriate." There are a few more predefined structures in DW, that to me doesn't make it superior.
 

I've never played Apocalypse World, how do they do it?

Because what bugs me is that D&D has guidance as well. What some people keep calling rule of cool is just following the rules of the game. If outcome is uncertain, make an ability check adding appropriate proficiency if applicable. Throw in advantage or disadvantage if it makes sense. Done.

I don’t know what “trusting the referee” means in this context and I don’t think anyone has said anything about determinism.

Like, it’s just one strawman after the other.

You’re correct, both are the same. The GM is given a framework for making off the cuff modifiers or effects for something the player does and requires a roll of some sort. In either game, if the GM thinks it’s reasonable that the PC can just do the thing because of their background or whatever, they just do it.

Rule of cool is not any different. Rule of cool means can the player even attempt the thing they want to do to begin with, not that a roll is not involved.
 

I don’t know what “trusting the referee” means in this context and I don’t think anyone has said anything about determinism.

Like, it’s just one strawman after the other.

You’re correct, both are the same. The GM is given a framework for making off the cuff modifiers or effects for something the player does and requires a roll of some sort. In either game, if the GM thinks it’s reasonable that the PC can just do the thing because of their background or whatever, they just do it.

Rule of cool is not any different. Rule of cool means can the player even attempt the thing they want to do to begin with, not that a roll is not involved.

All I'm saying is that you don't need any extra "rule of cool" to attempt anything. It may be simple and automatic, it may be uncertain or, as the example of hitting the moon with an arrow, it may be impossible. It will always be up to the DM and group to decide what qualifies for each category.
 

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