D&D General D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In?

It's interesting because a lot of your tastes – not all, but definitely most – line up with my own. That is one of the reasons why I started translating my setting into a B/X or OSE/Dolmenwood adjacent homebrew, as opposed to 5e, TotV, PF2e, or a modern D&D-like. I'll share a class snippet - it's unapologetically quirky and has a tone that won't appeal to many, but it's my jam.
View attachment 370518
That is quirky, but it also seems like a fun class. As an aside, I do love what I've seen of OSE/Dolmenwood, and I am firmly of the opinion that "Dungeons & Dragons"-based games should stop at 14th-level (or sooner).

Shadowdark (which is where I'm leaning at present, although my gaming group is currently on hiatus) stops at 10th, and I'd call it "Old-school D&D compatible." Kelsey took the streamlined design of modern games (Core check mechanic: "roll d20, high is good") and reworked everything around it with the deliberate intent to create a game with a solid old-school "feel." There's a bunch of other things I like about it, like Kelsey's approach to monster design (I'd call it "5e-Lite:" most monsters get A signature ability that lets them stand out from the rest, but they don't get a bunch of them). Check DCs range from 9 to 18. And even a 10th-level fighter tops out at an average of 50 hit points.

Two of the big selling points for me were that one, I really like Kelsey's reworking of magic; not just that she made a non-Vancian system, but also that she totally condensed and rewrote the D&D spell list. I'm sure there are some spells that are "missing," but I couldn't offhand tell you what they are (with the exception of Raise Dead and its more potent brethren) in only 5 spell "Tiers." And secondly, I really like that it still uses Advantage/Disadvantage, Death Saves and has a version of Inspiration (Luck Tokens). Those are all 5e innovations that I love. (Another 5e thing I adored was proficiency dice, but I think I was one of the only ones).

Mostly, I love it, but it doesn't (out of the box) support multi-classing and a few other things I kinda dig. However, it's also super-simple (if not always "easy") to create classes for.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

That is quirky, but it also seems like a fun class. As an aside, I do love what I've seen of OSE/Dolmenwood, and I am firmly of the opinion that "Dungeons & Dragons"-based games should stop at 14th-level (or sooner).

Shadowdark (which is where I'm leaning at present, although my gaming group is currently on hiatus) stops at 10th, and I'd call it "Old-school D&D compatible." Kelsey took the streamlined design of modern games (Core check mechanic: "roll d20, high is good") and reworked everything around it with the deliberate intent to create a game with a solid old-school "feel." There's a bunch of other things I like about it, like Kelsey's approach to monster design (I'd call it "5e-Lite:" most monsters get A signature ability that lets them stand out from the rest, but they don't get a bunch of them). Check DCs range from 9 to 18. And even a 10th-level fighter tops out at an average of 50 hit points.

Two of the big selling points for me were that one, I really like Kelsey's reworking of magic; not just that she made a non-Vancian system, but also that she totally condensed and rewrote the D&D spell list. I'm sure there are some spells that are "missing," but I couldn't offhand tell you what they are (with the exception of Raise Dead and its more potent brethren) in only 5 spell "Tiers." And secondly, I really like that it still uses Advantage/Disadvantage, Death Saves and has a version of Inspiration (Luck Tokens). Those are all 5e innovations that I love. (Another 5e thing I adored was proficiency dice, but I think I was one of the only ones).

Mostly, I love it, but it doesn't (out of the box) support multi-classing and a few other things I kinda dig. However, it's also super-simple (if not always "easy") to create classes for.
Every time I read Shadowdark it looks like Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG with less chaos and fewer charts.
 

I’ll do my best to give my answer to these as briefly as I can. In order:
Gracias!

Every exception is a rule. B/X had fewer class powers, and fewer species abilities.
So, in 5E terms "fewer features". This is something we've incorporated in nearly every homebrew for the last several years.

The hit point cap was lower.
Lower HD, maxed at 9th IIRC. Easy enough for 5E.

The game didn’t have Actions, Reactions, Bonus Actions, Minor Actions, Attacks of Opportunity, etc.
The round was structured. Resolve this, then this, then that, and so on. Initiative wasn't a thing, even remotely like 5E, until 2E I would think.

The munchkinning potential of finding “broken combinations” was much lower.
Very much so!

NWP’s are insufficient to cover the breadth of a heroic character’s skills. I’m thinking of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, who were talented athletes and horsemen, versed in lore, both of whom had stealth and thief skills, Mouser was a skilled forger, Fafhrd was a singing Skald, etc.

AD&D basically left all but a few skills as class abilities and 2-4 non-weapon proficiencies (when those were added) to DM fiat. With no guidelines for resolving them. Zero. Zip. Zilch.
I know in the OP you mentioned still having the WSG and DSG from AD&D... I never found any of what you're saying to be true IME... 2E organized it a bit better, and certainly you wouldn't have everything at lower levels, but by name level you pretty much had things covered IMO.

As for Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Fafhrd would have to be dual-classes to get some thief skills, but otherwise being athletic and horsemen, etc. could all be covered under NWP.

I think this bears more discussion to find out why our experiences differed so much on this point. Perhaps I'm just remembering things through rose-coloured glasses LOL!

Ascending armor class. Unified attribute bonuses. Skills providing a unified resolution mechanic. The codification of combat NWPs in the feat system meant Fighters got some cool stuff to do. It was a vast quality of life improvement. The cracks were all in the implementation.
Most of which has carried over into 5E, though, right?

Spell slots is my primary complaint. It always required elaborate justification. Some of the spells are way too OP, but that’s minor.
So the concept that channeling magic was draining/taxing to the caster didn't work? I've never found that too elaborate and a lot of the literature supports the idea that casting spells is fatiguing. Does that mean spell points or any other similar mechanic equally doesn't fit for you?

As for spells being OP, I've found different editions had different spells being OP. One spell gets "fixed" and another buffed beyond needs...

I’ve never loved the strict arcane/divine magic divide, but I realize I’m in a minority there.
This is one I go back and forth on. For simplicity's sake, I like just thinking "magic is magic is magic" and the arcane/divine/primal is the fluff; but it is so rooted into the game for many people that NOT having the divide does make the magic feel "samey". In that sense, having a hard divide would be better IMO than having a blurry one.

Also, the “crossbow wizard.” I have no issue giving spellcasters a weak magical attack at-will so they don’t need a crossbow. YMMV.
My preference in such cases is "do something else!" Why does a wizard (or any caster) have to use magic all the time or attack with a weapon? 5E offers a few other options. While I can envision clerics fighting in melee, druids and warlocks too, perhaps, and of course bards... but sorcerers not as much and certainly not wizards (barring subclasses like bladesingers....).

But at-will magical pew pew pew attacks is something myself and most of the people I play with abhore! Having magic so "commonplace" for a PC, even such a weak version as a magical attack, makes magic feel less magical for our groups.

As an aside, my first C&C gamemaster let my wizard have two “at-will” powers: “Cantrip” (basically “prestidigitation” at-will) and “Arcane bolt” (which was a Dex-based 1d6 ranged attack). With those two powers, I always felt like a wizard, and It did not feel overpowered at our table.
I agree it isn't necessarily a matter of overpowered in such a case. I think most cantrips being at-will and allowing PCs to know them all works fine. For over a year we played where casters knew every cantrip in their spell list that did not deal damage, and it worked really well. Lots of non-damage stuff to do that could help out even in combat.

We have an Arcane Trickster in our current game who makes wonderful use of minor illusion!

d6 skills. Saving Throws. And Tables. Tables. Tables.
LOL fair enough!

I think something like DCC’s “Mighty Deeds” crossed with Luck/Deathbringer Dice that provides revolution guidelines for what’s an appropriate effect to trigger by level.
I'll have to research those things as I'm not familiar with them.

Actually figure out simple rules for grappling, throwing, tripping, disarming, et cetera. And making tactical choices in combat.

I’m spending most of my homebrew effort on this topic.
I think the rules in 5E are simple enough, but nearly entirely ineffective! I'd be curious to see what your efforts are on these if you feel like sharing at some point.

Shadowdark is super-close, which is why it’s my system of choice.

Characters are a little too fragile (easily fixed), it doesn't have a skill system, and it lacks those combat options (although it does use luck tokens). It’s also a bit obsessed with niche protection.
I see some appeal to Shadowdark, but in some ways it goes overboard and simplifies things too much for me. Many things lack the concrete rules I like, with options covering most things. 5E's design of "rulings over rules" hinders the game for me as well.

Rules were always optional, in every edition, so having solid rules which can be altered or ignored is more beneficial to players than not having them at all and just leave everything up to the DM/players to decide "how they want to do it".

5E also misses the mark on simple combat options which were used IRL, such as attacking with a shield.

Thank you for the response.
 

Mostly, I love it, but it doesn't (out of the box) support multi-classing and a few other things I kinda dig. However, it's also super-simple (if not always "easy") to create classes for.
I love creating new Shadowdark content. Probably my favorite game to do so for. And unlike 3E, I never feel like I'm creating the gun my players will later shoot me with.
 

but also that she totally condensed and rewrote the D&D spell list. I'm sure there are some spells that are "missing," but I couldn't offhand tell you what they are (with the exception of Raise Dead and its more potent brethren) in only 5 spell "Tiers."
This is something we're also doing--- 60-80% of the spells in 5E are fairly useless and/or hardly ever taken.
 

Shadowdark is so easy to tinker with. I'm playing in a Shadowdark game and my husband, who is running it, loves creating things for it. He says it really gets his creative juices going.

I'm running a Shadowdark game in pulp mode, using Theros. It is easy to blend in the extra goodies Theros characters get in that setting. I've changed the experience from treasure based to heroic deeds based as well. The system is flexible. Greek inspired heroes are a long ways from dungeon delvers searching for riches in the dark but it is working well.
 

Every time I read Shadowdark it looks like Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG with less chaos and fewer charts.
Mostly accurate. :ROFLMAO:

Also no "racial classes," which was one of my earliest gripes with B/X.

That being said, I think I've mentioned it before, but I really like DCC's "Deed Dice" and will probably port them over to Shadowdark.

I'll try it with Fighters first, and I'm planning to make them wait until they have a +2 attack bonus (swap for a d4 and try a deed if you want). Any fighter who gets a 3-6 on the Talent table could try for a Deed at Level 1 - but only with their Mastered Weapon. And all fighters could try at Level 2.

Another tweak would be to let a character trade part of their attack bonus from any source for a deed die (+2 for a d4, +3 to get a d6, etc.). But you'd probably want a level-based restriction on the size of the die, and max it out at a d12.

Stunts similar to this are also one way Professor Dungeon Master allows people to use his Deathbringer Dice, so one could let characters use Luck Tokens to trigger martial stunts instead. Must ponder which makes more sense... :unsure:
 

That being said, I think I've mentioned it before, but I really like DCC's "Deed Dice" and will probably port them over to Shadowdark.

I'll try it with Fighters first, and I'm planning to make them wait until they have a +2 attack bonus (swap for a d4 and try a deed if you want). Any fighter who gets a 3-6 on the Talent table could try for a Deed at Level 1 - but only with their Mastered Weapon. And all fighters could try at Level 2.

Another tweak would be to let a character trade part of their attack bonus from any source for a deed die (+2 for a d4, +3 to get a d6, etc.). But you'd probably want a level-based restriction on the size of the die, and max it out at a d12.

Stunts similar to this are also one way Professor Dungeon Master allows people to use his Deathbringer Dice, so one could let characters use Luck Tokens to trigger martial stunts instead. Must ponder which makes more sense... :unsure:
See, without knowing more, but at first glance this sort of stuff seems "fiddly" to me...
 

I am firmly of the opinion that "Dungeons & Dragons"-based games should stop at 14th-level (or sooner).
fully agree, my ideal game is probably somewhere in the middle between Shadowdark and 5e, I want a bit more resilience and complexity than SD has, but not the superheroics of 5e.

Ideally it would even be compatible with 5e (by that I mean need no conversion of monsters and adventures, the classes and spells can be as different as needed)

The more I see of 2024, the more interested I become in SD…
 

The latest Sly Flourish video is also complaining about some 2024 changes, among them also the Fey Warlock (the whole thing starts around 9:50, the Fey is around 17:30)


To me, if you get Sly Flourish to wonder whether that is still a game for him, it certainly stopped being a game for me.

I just watched this and OMFG his part about 5.5 and WotC is like "time to annoy the DM with overpowered heroes!"

WHY?
 

Remove ads

Top