D&D General Alternate thought - rule of cool is bad for gaming

[Oofta]

I responded to this: "It’s not an undefined resolution. It’s acknowledging you can’t reasonably have rules for everything. Trying to leads to never really getting to play because you have to constantly stop play to look up rules. You will inevitably have gaps in the rules."

I replied "And yet Apocalypse World does." It has resolution rules for every action declaration.

The reason that AW does have this, but (say) AD&D doesn't, is not because AW's rulebook is 100x or 1000x bigger. It's because AW uses a different rules architecture. Contra what @Oofta asserted upthread, it is not just labelling the same thing with new names.

I've watched live streams, read the rules. We just disagree. They implement resolutions in a different fashion, but there is no DW magic that changes the essence of play other than to have a different focus.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or even just who's personalities happen to click. Which can be just as bad when everyone else is left out.

I'm kinda LN in DM style. I don't play favorites at least to much.

I do have one player who's a bit more forward I suppose. Not to annoying but can be sometimes. They're playing a bard so makes sense. Legend lore ability.

But did point out to another player if you sit there and say nothing......

 

[pemerton]

But if you didn't mean to state or imply that DW was superior, why make repeatedly make the statement that it "has a rule to resolve every declared action".

Because, upthread, a poster asserted that it is not possible for a RPG to have a rule for resolving every declared action. And that assertion is mistaken

You may not be interested in that, or in thinking about how a RPG can be designed so that it has a rule for resolving every declared action. But others might be.

Because D&D also has such rules. DW just handles it differently (sometimes with a random roll) in a more narrative style with more restrictions on the GM.

I can state that D&D also has everything covered. That's the issue I have with your statements. The way the rules are implemented is just different, it's comparing apples and oranges.

Well, does D&D have a rule for resolving every declared action? It's not obvious to me that 5e D&D does. I certainly see a lot of discussion that seems to proceed from the premise that it doesn't.

I've watched live streams, read the rules. We just disagree. They implement resolutions in a different fashion, but there is no DW magic that changes the essence of play other than to have a different focus.

I'm not posting about Dungeon World, I'm posting about Apocalypse World. Someone who knows DW better than I do would be in a position to say whether or not it has a rule to resolve every declared action.

And I'm not sure what you are saying we disagree about. Do you disagree that AW has a rule to resolve every declared action?

Do you disagree with me that D&D 5e has no notion of "GM moves"? I mean, I've never heard anyone talk about them. If you think 5e D&D does have GM moves, where is the discussion of them to be found?

 

[Oofta]

Because, upthread, a poster asserted that it is not possible for a RPG to have a rule for resolving every declared action. And that assertion is mistaken

You may not be interested in that, or in thinking about how a RPG can be designed so that it has a rule for resolving every declared action. But others might be.

Well, does D&D have a rule for resolving every declared action? It's not obvious to me that 5e D&D does. I certainly see a lot of discussion that seems to proceed from the premise that it doesn't.

I'm not posting about Dungeon World, I'm posting about Apocalypse World. Someone who knows DW better than I do would be in a position to say whether or not it has a rule to resolve every declared action.

And I'm not sure what you are saying we disagree about. Do you disagree that AW has a rule to resolve every declared action?

Do you disagree with me that D&D 5e has no notion of "GM moves"? I mean, I've never heard anyone talk about them. If you think 5e D&D does have GM moves, where is the discussion of them to be found?

Sorry, getting my acronyms messed up. It's still a PbtA game, correct? D&D has rules for resolving everything attempted. How it is resolved goes back the the Role of the Dice chapter in the DMG and it's largely up to the DM and group. If you say AW has a rule to resolve every declared action? Okay. So does D&D. The rule, that the DM ultimately makes the call, may just not be to your liking.

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton

If you simply mean AW has a resolution framework that covers all potential player declarations then:

1. It’s not clear why you view d&d as not having this? What possible player declaration in d&d is not covered by its resolution mechanics?

2. If in your view d&d does have this feature then doesn’t it seem rather obvious the initial claim RPG’s can’t have mechanics for everything meant something different than some player declared actions cannot be resolved by the resolution mechanics?

The post I responded to didn't use the word "mechanics", it used the word "rules".

I can tell you from experience that AD&D does not have a rule for the resolution of every declared action. That's why new subsystems keep getting bolted on.

A lot of discussion of 5e D&D appears to proceed from the premise that it does not have a rule to resolve every declared action. And I gave a simple example upthread, of a character jumping a wide crevasse. I have seen plenty of discussion which seems to proceed from the premise that there is no clear rule for resolving some such declarations (namely, where the character is not under a Jump spell or similar effect, and where the width of the crevasse in feet is greater than the character's STR score).

I take the claim that an RPGs cannot have rules for everything to mean something much different than a resolution framework cannot cover all potential actions. (The word cover is doing alot of work here.. as in cover it how?).

OK. I responded to the post that I read, as I understood it.

 

[Oofta]

I'm kinda LN in DM style. I don't play favorites at least to much.

I do have one player who's a bit more forward I suppose. Not to annoying but can be sometimes.

But did point out if you sit there and say nothing......

Whether people recognize their prejudices plays into it a lot though. That, and some DMs may handle it better than others (present company included). As an example I used to play way, way back in the day Living City. We'd go to local conventions and game days and at this one site there was a DM who just didn't like me from the very first time I sat at his table, from the moment I opened my mouth. I have no idea why because it was obvious from the very first interaction. Point is that even running a more-or-less straight 2E game, he showed obvious bias. A DM that followed the rule-of-cool would only have exaggerated the difference.

 

[pemerton]

Sorry, getting my acronyms messed up. It's still a PbtA game, correct? D&D has rules for resolving everything attempted. How it is resolved goes back the the Role of the Dice chapter in the DMG and it's largely up to the DM and group. If you say AW has a rule to resolve every declared action? Okay. So does D&D. The rule, that the DM ultimately makes the call, may just not be to your liking.

Well, I think the claim that the rule for resolution in 5e D&D is the GM ultimately decides what happens would be a controversial one. In other threads, I've seen that description of 5e D&D criticised as denigrating caricature.

 

[Oofta]

Well, I think the claim that the rule for resolution in 5e D&D is the GM ultimately decides what happens would be a controversial one. In other threads, I've seen that description of 5e D&D criticised as denigrating caricature.

So? If it's a problem for you then perhaps a different game is the one you should be playing. Perhaps should also be the forum you go to for gaming discussions as well.

 

[Zardnaar]

Whether people recognize their prejudices plays into it a lot though. That, and some DMs may handle it better than others (present company included). As an example I used to play way, way back in the day Living City. We'd go to local conventions and game days and at this one site there was a DM who just didn't like me from the very first time I sat at his table, from the moment I opened my mouth. I have no idea why because it was obvious from the very first interaction. Point is that even running a more-or-less straight 2E game, he showed obvious bias. A DM that followed the rule-of-cool would only have exaggerated the difference.

That happens. My wife is one of the players. She's the only fatality we have had in 5 years. Couch is comfortable enough.

My bias I suppose at home she can go through her character and worldbuilding in more detail. She doesn't really get spoilers and I don't tend to change magic items in adventures.

 

[FrogReaver]

The post I responded to didn't use the word "mechanics", it used the word "rules".

Bad habit of mine I suppose, as I tend to use those words interchangeably.

I can tell you from experience that AD&D does not have a rule for the resolution of every declared action. That's why new subsystems keep getting bolted on.

A lot of discussion of 5e D&D appears to proceed from the premise that it does not have a rule to resolve every declared action. And I gave a simple example upthread, of a character jumping a wide crevasse. I have seen plenty of discussion which seems to proceed from the premise that there is no clear rule for resolving some such declarations (namely, where the character is not under a Jump spell or similar effect, and where the width of the crevasse in feet is greater than the character's STR score).

Then let me help. The reason people make house rules for d&d is not because it cannot handle some action declaration, it’s because it doesn’t always do so to their liking, and so they make a rule up that will.

*Note I have no experience with ad&d.