D&D General D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In?

[ezo]

Why is it terrible?

Why are you okay with “rolling 1’s is good,” but not okay with “a 3 strength is better than a 14?”

My point is that it doesn’t have to make complete sense.

As for ability scores, you can reason it the same way.

"I am the 1st-strongest, so my STR is 1. You are the 2nd-strongest, so your STR is 2" and so on.

But then, like AC, you run into an issue when something is stronger than a PC who is "1st-strongest". Does such a creature become negative 3rd-strongest (STR -3) if it worked like AC?

You could do it, but make it gets wonky fast LOL!

 

[TwoSix]

I’ll observe it’s also incredibly easy to flip.

“D20 roll under,” can be flipped by “Get new score by Subtracting ability score from 20.”

Now you roll high. How would you feel about an 8 strength being better than a 14?

And if that hurts your brain, you now understand why roll under can bother people.

I'd subtract it from 21, so that 3-18 changes to 18-3, but other than that, not seeing the issue.

 

[JohnSnow]

As a reminder there is a difference between Roll Under and THAC0. THAC0 is not the end all and be all for roll under systems. There are fair number of different roll under systems out there, including Blackjack like ones in Pendragon: i.e., roll as high as you can without going over the value.

Oh, I wasn’t trying to conflate roll under and THAC0. There’s nothing wrong with roll under, but a kludgy system (like old D&D’s) involving bonuses that sometimes raise something and others lower a different thing is definitely messy.

D&D AC woulda been more logical if you just had to “roll a 1” to hit the lowest AC.

There’s nothing about “Roll under” that’s inherently messy or illogical. I just can’t get excited by it.

I do find it interesting that Dragonbane relabels the results of a 1 and 20, by giving them names (“dragon” and “demon,” respectively).

Which seems to me an implicit recognition by the designers that my issue isn’t unique.

 

[JohnSnow]

I'd subtract it from 21, so that 3-18 changes to 18-3, but other than that, not seeing the issue.

As ezo noted, the only wonky thing is what happens when you need a score lower than 1? Does Hercules have a strength of -5?

I may try Dragonbane and see how badly roll under bugs my players. I do think it’s a pretty nifty system otherwise.

 

[TwoSix]

As for ability scores, you can reason it the same way.

"I am the 1st-strongest, so my STR is 1. You are the 2nd-strongest, so your STR is 2" and so on.

But then, like AC, you run into an issue when something is stronger than a PC who is "1st-strongest". Does such a creature become negative 3rd-strongest (STR -3) if it worked like AC?

You could do it, but make it gets wonky fast LOL!

I think, fundamentally, you can't put every creature in existence on the same 1-20 scale, and also have the range of human (and humanish) capabilities eat up 80% of that scale (the 3-18 part).

Either PC capability needs to take up a smaller part of the scale, or monsters and magic that transcend human capability needs to have a different system for expressing that capability.

The whole reason stats became unbounded in 3e when they switched to the d20 system was to allow players and monsters to use the same stat system but to allow for monsters that vastly exceeded standard PC capabilities.

Roll-under ordinal systems just have to allow special monster capabilities or fictional tags to demonstrate superhuman capabilities for monsters.

 

[Aldarc]

There’s nothing about “Roll under” that’s inherently messy or illogical. I just can’t get excited by it.

There's nothing inherently exciting about rolling a 20 unless you understand what it represents for the particular game that you are playing.

I do find it interesting that Dragonbane relabels the results of a 1 and 20, by giving them names (“dragon” and “demon,” respectively).

Which seems to me an implicit recognition by the designers that my issue isn’t unique.

I don't think that's "renaming" anymore than it is by calling a nat 20 a "critical hit" and a nat 1 a "critical fumble," so I would caution against reading too much of your confirmation bias into that. As this is a Swedish game with a lineage from BRP, which is roll under, and it has used a d20 for its resolution since Drakar och Demoner Expert (1985), I doubt that most of its Swedish fans share your perspective on this matter regarding the designers.

 

[overgeeked]

The cost is that typically in DCC, Deed dice add to damage as well as attack rolls. If you choose to perform a Mighty Deed, it might not happen (2/d chance), but you give up the extra damage regardless.

So it’s not a high cost, but it’s not no cost.

That’s not how it works. You always add the deed die. Always. There is zero cost to attempting a deed every action. Zero.

 

[overgeeked]

I’ll observe it’s also incredibly easy to flip.

“D20 roll under,” can be flipped by “Get new score by Subtracting ability score from 20.”

Now you roll high. How would you feel about an 8 strength being better than a 14?

And if that hurts your brain, you now understand why roll under can bother people.

How you avoid that is setting the DC at 21 and adding your stat to the roll. Now higher is better across the board.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think, fundamentally, you can't put every creature in existence on the same 1-20 scale, and also have the range of human (and humanish) capabilities eat up 80% of that scale (the 3-18 part).

Either PC capability needs to take up a smaller part of the scale, or monsters and magic that transcend human capability needs to have a different system for expressing that capability.

The whole reason stats became unbounded in 3e when they switched to the d20 system was to allow players and monsters to use the same stat system but to allow for monsters that vastly exceeded standard PC capabilities.

Roll-under ordinal systems just have to allow special monster capabilities or fictional tags to demonstrate superhuman capabilities for monsters.

I've mentioned this before. Non-humanoid monsters shouldn't even use the six stats in their block. They make no sense outside of the human (etc) perspective, in either direction.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I’ll observe it’s also incredibly easy to flip.

“D20 roll under,” can be flipped by “Get new score by Subtracting ability score from 20.”

Now you roll high. How would you feel about an 8 strength being better than a 14?

And if that hurts your brain, you now understand why roll under can bother people.

Unless I'm confused about what you're saying (and I don't promise I'm not) I've played games like that and it didn't bother me.