D&D General 5.5 and making the game easier for players and harder for DMs

[overgeeked]

Correction: it’s not fun for anyone but that one player.

That’s the problem we’ve got right now. Many things that make the game “more fun” for one player take away the fun from everyone else.

Exactly.

 

[DarkCrisis]

That's the OSR.

it makes your PCs boring and unskilled and keeps you interested with a constant threat of death.

Which means once players stop caring about their PCs mortality, they check out. So it forces DMs to do another type of work to keep them interested.

First time I had 2 5E players try OSR their comments where basically “it feels like what I do matters”.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So you're saying that they don't pay attention to any point of view other than their own?

Of course. The D&D designers are creating D&D games that they want to play. But they also individually have their own bits and pieces they prefer, and thus compromise within WotC comes about when designing rules as well. Not a single designer at WotC is getting the game they 100% want. That's why people like Monte Cook wrote and released his Arcana Unearthed book so soon after finishing the writing on 3E and leaving the company, and @mearls is right now writing up all kinds of 5E material that he wants to see. Not to mention that Chris Perkins has gone all-in when he was on the teams working on 3E, 4E and 5E, because that was his job. He might find any one of those three editions to be more his speed, but when it comes down to working on each of those editions, he joins the giant compromise team that tries to work together to create a D&D on the whole that will work fairly-to-pretty well for more people.

But it should not be a surprise that there are people who don't fall within that circle of what is this designer-compromising edition of Dungeons & Dragons. There's no way it would ever be able to encircle everyone. But what kills me is all the people who KNOW they don't fall within the circle, specifically STATE they don't fall within the circle... and yet REFUSE TO LEAVE the outskirts of the circle wishing hope-against-hope to get themselves back in. And then spend all this time bemoaning that they are outside the circle and sling barbs and insults at everyone inside who made the circle because their work did not include them. That's just sad.

 

[KYRON45]

Sounds like a lot of people playing D&D just don’t like D&D.

 

[payn]

Of course. The D&D designers are creating D&D games that they want to play. But they also individually have their own bits and pieces they prefer, and thus compromise within WotC comes about when designing rules as well. Not a single designer at WotC is getting the game they 100% want. That's why people like Monte Cook wrote and released his Arcana Unearthed book so soon after finishing the writing on 3E and leaving the company, and @mearls is right now writing up all kinds of 5E material that he wants to see. Not to mention that Chris Perkins has gone all-in when he was on the teams working on 3E, 4E and 5E, because that was his job. He might find any one of those three editions to be more his speed, but when it comes down to working on each of those editions, he joins the giant compromise team that tries to work together to create a D&D on the whole that will work fairly-to-pretty well for more people.

But it should not be a surprise that there are people who don't fall within that circle of what this compromise edition of Dungeons & Dragons. There's no way it would ever be able to encircle everyone. But what kills me is all the people who KNOW they don't fall within the circle, specifically STATE they don't fall within the circle... and yet REFUSE TO LEAVE the outskirts of the circle wishing hope-against-hope to get themselves back in. And then spend all this time bemoaning that they are outside the circle and sling barbs and insults at everyone inside who made the circle because their work did not include them. That's just sad.

For some folks the stakes are too high to back down for the soul of D&D.

 

[payn]

Sounds like a lot of people playing D&D just don’t like D&D.

Its been that way forever. Its the curse of the dominate force in the TTRPG market and community.

 

[KYRON45]

Its been that way forever. Its the curse of the dominate force in the TTRPG market and community.

What do you think the answer is?

 

[DarkCrisis]

What do you think the answer is?

Play other versions of D&D. Old Eds and OSR stuff. It’s still D&D just not with the current Ed label.

But like a lot of name brands, people like that shiny brand label.

I recently found Old School Essentials and I love it. Even house ruled a few things like death at -4 and better stat rolls etc.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I have done improv, yes. I also run RPGs. Most gamers are not improvisers in that they’re out to win at all costs. They don’t care how boring the game is as long as they win. To most gamers, winning is the only thing that matters.

Yes, it’s the referee’s job to make things challenging. That’s what I’m saying. Trouble is, that tends to result in the players getting mad, yelling, and ragequitting. Because they don’t want challenge, they want to steamroll win everything all the time.

Yes, they do. And for most gamers that’s literally all the time.

Depends entirely on the players. If they’re gamers, they will get mad at not getting the easy win. If they’re interested in story and drama and conflict, they’ll eat it up. This is at least one of the ways sweeping generalizations fail. People play games for different reasons. If they only care about winning, this style doesn’t work. If they care about drama, conflict, etc then it works a treat. In the last decade of running 5E, I’ve found maybe 5-6 players out of several hundred who’re not out for the easy steamroll win.

I don't disagree with a thing you said. Which is exactly why I do my best to play with improvisors and theater people so that we are all on the same page and it's not something I ever really need to worry about.

But if someone is stuck playing with "gamers" and thus have to play in a style they themselves wouldn't prefer... it's not surprising that they'd be irritated all the time. Either because the rules are written to help the "gamers" game and thus the "improvisors" are stuck... or because the the rules are written to let the "improvisors" improvise easier and thus the gamers wonder why they just can't play the intricate and tactically challenging dice game they wanted and are constantly annoyed and complaining, which the DM then has to try and deal with.

Really... in my opinion the biggest problem is that people just do not or cannot find the right game for them * and * the right group of players for them for that game. Instead they just throw up their hands and take whatever gets handed to them because that's the route of easiest travel... but all the while being annoyed about it as they travel it. Don't like parts of 5E but also don't want to change those parts into something (general) you would prefer because it would involve having to explain (general) yourself to any of your potential players and you just don't want to deal with it? Then best of luck playing a game you don't like because you don't want to work any harder to get something different.

 

[payn]

What do you think the answer is?

5E. As much as folks like to complain on here, its really only a drop in the fandom. I think the design is sort of a hodgepodge of all the ideas over the decades and editions. Its ended up as everybody's second favorite edition. I think its slowly becoming the entry point, and then if its not enough or too frustrating, you move onto another RPG. Which is exactly what I think D&D needs to be. Not cutting edge, with a spalsh of tradition, and just a little something for everybody. If all the folks willing to talk all day online about the game a re little unsatisfied, but overall enjoy it, its in the right place for the legions that just dont care that deeply about the design.