WotC D&D Historian Ben Riggs says the OGL fiasco was Chris Cocks idea.

And actually, I would point out that you don't NEED a square based map if you are using a VTT. They likely will go that route, but grid maps evolved as a way to speed up gameplay without the need for rulers, that is why each 5ft square is 1 in IRL. A VTT could easily allow things to move based on simulated feet with in-built rulers. For an example... Baldur's Gate 3 took this exact approach, using rulers and colored circles to demonstrate range and area of effect.



Yeah, I could see a Virtual system handling that better than doing it manually at the table.
Oh, absolutely. I was just noodling around the ways you could actually, if you wanted to, try to force the game to be less creative in some way. Again, I've been gaming VTT since OpenRPG in 2002. Combined with PC Gen. I'm absolutely baffled how anyone could possibly think that VTT results in less creative games. I literally cannot see how. I mean, good grief, D&D Maps on Reddit is one of the largest single Reddit's out there. In the top 5% anyway. There's a Reddit that is 100% dedicated to displaying D&D and RPG cartography.

🤷

I mean, good grief, Fantasy Grounds has micro-transactions RIGHT NOW. Lots and lots of them. They allow creators to make various elements on the Forge and allow the creators to charge whatever they feel they want. You want to automate most of 5e? Guess what? On Fantasy Grounds, you're going to pay for that.

But apparently ten years of Fantasy Grounds has driven D&D creativity into the ground? Somehow?
 
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I can't find it now but I feel like they were trying to do this in some of the early playtests even. I remember they had more hard-coded rules for social mechanics that struck me as being easier to automate

They were also easier and more clear to run at the table, which is why DMs were asking for guidance like that, and were excited to see it.
 

You seem to be applying some idealized version of moderation (apparently on all digital platforms) to how WotC is will treat theirs, rather than letting their past actions serve as an indicator.

Idealized nothing. I know how impossible it is to moderate large-scale content like copyright strikes against animated TV shows. Trying to moderate the intent of text? It is literally impossible. They would have to prevent you from writing about the abilities you have on your legal character, just to prevent someone making a legal one. It would be a trash fire of such obvious magnitude that no one wanting a successful product would ever attempt it. It doesn't matter how much some suited president screams about revenue loss, the IT and software departments will tell them "This is not possible"

Yeah, they can. I'm not sure what makes you think they can't go into someone's account and alter permissions, remove content, etc., but that's something which can be safely taken as a given.

Because they can't TRACK it. To prevent someone from writing the Gloomstalker Ranger's ability into something else, they would need to not only track the word "psychic" but also "d8" and the context of every usage of those words or phrases. They would have to redact their OWN CLASSES to prevent it. And then ALSO prevent anyone from typing into a chat box those words.

No, in fact that's literally not what I've said; I've literally said that doing so will be disincentivized because they won't be animated, and because there's now a two-fold issue with creating and balancing them under the game rules and inputting them into the VTT's interface.

So they will make custom spells and there is no issue.

No, I'm pretty sure WotC can animate a simple status buff/debuff, which is how I'm guessing they'll handle skills if they decide to bother with them at all in terms of incentivization via animating them.

And to think it only took a few dozen posts to get you to correctly reiterate one aspect of one point of what I was talking about.

And there goes the correct understanding, since you're back to absolutes of "stop people" rather than "make less incentivized."

Because "less incentivized" is a mealy-mouthed nonsense stance. It seems to both mean that this will be so pervasive that the very foundational rules of creative play for every single person who plays in person with a core rulebook will be effected (eventually) and also so completely innocuous that it will not stop people from doing anything. So, they won't be stopped, they still can, but they won't, and so all the unlimited creative play of DnD will be strip mined from the game to serve the VTT as a soulless cash-grab.

I'll reiterate once more that no one is saying that VTTs limit people's ability to be creative, just that WotC's VTT looks like it has the potential unintended consequence of disincentivizing imaginative play. The comparison you're making is inherently flawed therein.

I'll note here that posting a flood of tangential content and saying "watch this and then reply" is a variation of the gish gallop fallacy, where you give someone a "bogus" homework assignment in hope that they'll give up the debate. In point of fact, besides being itself a flawed manner of debate, it's particularly irrelevant here, as it's arguing against a point I never made, as this is not only presenting VTTs which aren't WotC's (and so can't be judged as being the same not only from a technical perspective, but also because they lack the same circumstances of consideration in not having the brand recognition, purchasing considerations, ownership/promotion of content, etc.), but pushes forward with the idea that I said "VTTs destroy creativity," which is wrong.

Not only did I never say that, but you're actually using a made-up quote inside of your quotation marks. The first person to start talking about "creative and unlimited play" was you, over here.

Insofar as responding to the point I actually brought up, that's correct: you do not have that

So, despite all the actual plays of people actually playing DnD and not being less incentivized to take any actions... none of it counts because it is only WoTC's VTT that will have this effect on the gaming community. Sorry, it is only WoTC's VTT that has the potential to maybe have this effect on the community where they might be less incentivized to take any possible creative action, which is the fundamental core of TTRPG play that it is sold on, and this gradual lessening of incentive will eventually erode the game until the core rulebooks are written to remove the idea that any action is possible, so that people will use the VTT which will have animations and colors.
 

They were also easier and more clear to run at the table, which is why DMs were asking for guidance like that, and were excited to see it.
I could see a ruleset designed for VTT being better for some groups even without the VTT. The point remains is that one could see wotc start to design their ruleset assuming the use of automation tools (whether character creators or non-basic VTTs). It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, especially if most people are using dndbeyond and or a VTT, but it introduces a new tension in design.
 

I could see a ruleset designed for VTT being better for some groups even without the VTT. The point remains is that one could see wotc start to design their ruleset assuming the use of automation tools (whether character creators or non-basic VTTs). It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, especially if most people are using dndbeyond and or a VTT, but it introduces a new tension in design.
This is kinda something that came up with the criticisms about 4e. (I'm REALLY SORRY I am bringing this up, but bear with me.)

A lot of people saw the changes in 4e as a sort of WoWifying the game. The thing is, those criticisms aren't completely off base. They were, in a way. The reason was, the idea behind 4e is that you were going to be playing with strangers - a lot. Particularly if they had gotten their VTT off the ground back then. That was how they were going to grow the hobby - you boot up your PC, or your X-box, hunt around a bit and join a game. Kind of an ongoing organized play convention that never ends.

Which meant you needed mechanics that serviced that kind of play - very clear, concise, transparent mechanics because, well, "trust your DM" doesn't work as well when you are playing with a new DM every week.

So, we got much more rigid mechanics.

I suppose if WotC were to try to do that again, I could kinda see them building mechanics, not so much to force people to play VTT, but, to make VTT play with strangers work easier. As it stands right now, that's very much not happening with D&D24. The changes that we've seen have zero to do with this sort of play. 4e was very much the Organized Play edition and the mechanics reflect that. 5e is very much not that. There are FAR too many vague mechanics in 5e for it to work like that.

But, if one were inclined to want to see WotC as trying to force gamers onto the VTT platform, then that would be the direction I would expect the mechanics to go. Granted, this has ZERO impact on creativity, but, 🤷
 

Idealized nothing.
No, I'd say you've idealized quite a bit with regards to WotC and how people will evaluate their VTT against other such products. Among other things.
I know how impossible it is to moderate large-scale content like copyright strikes against animated TV shows.
In this case, I think you're drawing a very flawed parallel between whatever it is you're talking about and how WotC will curate the walled garden they're setting up.
Trying to moderate the intent of text? It is literally impossible.
And irrelevant. I'm not sure why you think WotC would care about the intent of what their users do. Far more likely they'll simply decide if they approve or not, and judge based on that.
They would have to prevent you from writing about the abilities you have on your legal character, just to prevent someone making a legal one.
Again, this isn't a question of "prevention." It's a question of them being able to unilaterally decide they don't like something, and being able to take whatever action they feel appropriate in response.
It would be a trash fire of such obvious magnitude that no one wanting a successful product would ever attempt it.
Leaving aside the obvious comment with regard to how that would fit with WotC's actions these last few years, capriciousness in moderation of a space they control is fairly ubiquitous in online spaces these days, so I see no reason why WotC would be singled out for it to the extent that you're suggesting. (And remember, the OGL debacle was because WotC was trying to assert authority over a space that they didn't already control.)
It doesn't matter how much some suited president screams about revenue loss, the IT and software departments will tell them "This is not possible"
Except, of course, that curating content that someone else had written and which WotC can review after the fact is entirely possible. I'm not sure why you think they won't be able to look at someone's account, see what's there, and take action as they see fit.
Because they can't TRACK it.
"Track it"? Are you under the impression that this custom content will be utilized once, apparently during play, and then removed from the system? Because that seems like a rather odd idea, as opposed to writing something and uploading/posting it to their account, at which point WotC can view it at their leisure.
To prevent someone from writing the Gloomstalker Ranger's ability into something else, they would need to not only track the word "psychic" but also "d8" and the context of every usage of those words or phrases.
Or, you know, they could just look at what you've written in your account. Yeah, you might be able to get away with it under the principle of "needle in a haystack," but that's just you hoping to be overlooked, rather than some sort of technical limitation.
They would have to redact their OWN CLASSES to prevent it.
No, they really wouldn't. They'd be able to see if you purchased the content with said class on DDB and were using it that way or not.
And then ALSO prevent anyone from typing into a chat box those words.
So you're of the opinion that custom content on the VTT will be utilized via chat boxes? Really?
So they will make custom spells and there is no issue.
Except of course for the issues that I outlined previously, regarding additional effort for reduced payoff and the disincentivation that creates.
Because "less incentivized" is a mealy-mouthed nonsense stance.
No, it's really not. It's the heart of my concern regarding the unintended consequences of what WotC is doing, and is a far cry from your misinterpretation of my point as "using any VTT reduces creativity."
It seems to both mean that this will be so pervasive that the very foundational rules of creative play for every single person who plays in person with a core rulebook will be effected (eventually) and also so completely innocuous that it will not stop people from doing anything.
I'll point out here that when someone uses a phrase like "seems to mean," it suggests that they're utilizing their own interpretation of what someone else said rather than what they actually said, inhibiting clarity of communication rather than abetting it. I'd recommend not doing that.

That said, the concern I'm proposing is simply a specific application of the medium being the message, at least in part. It doesn't necessarily need to happen for "every single person," or to the same extent, or over the same period of time. I'm just noting that the potential is there and should be recognized, if for no other reason than simple awareness of it helps to ameliorate the effect (and the discussion is quite intriguing to have).
So, they won't be stopped, they still can, but they won't, and so all the unlimited creative play of DnD will be strip mined from the game to serve the VTT as a soulless cash-grab.
Again, you're speaking in absolutist terms ("all," for instance) that don't match the tenor in which I've presented this, for reasons that I'm still not clear on.
So, despite all the actual plays of people actually playing DnD and not being less incentivized to take any actions... none of it counts because it is only WoTC's VTT that will have this effect on the gaming community.
That's one of the reasons (the other being that your caricature of my point was that all expressions of personal creativity would be affected). WotC isn't those other VTT companies, and they aren't WotC. Their goals, resources, Q Score, and relationship to the game (i.e. they own it and so can modify it to their satisfaction), among many other things, are all different.
Thank you, I accept your apology.
it is only WoTC's VTT that has the potential to maybe have this effect on the community where they might be less incentivized to take any possible creative action,
In terms of what we're discussing, yes, I believe that this is far more salient with regards to WotC's VTT for the reasons outlined above. Though again, you've unnecessarily universalized "any possible creative action" (e.g. your mention of songwriting and drawing comics) as opposed to "imaginative play."
which is the fundamental core of TTRPG play that it is sold on,
Hence my concern that said fundamental core will be minimized in favor of the monetization efforts which WotC's VTT is in service of.
and this gradual lessening of incentive will eventually erode the game
I'm not sure what you mean by eroding the game itself, as opposed to imaginative play.
until the core rulebooks are written to remove the idea that any action is possible,
More correctly, that they're written to work in conjunction with the VTT as much as possible, which has technical limitations that incentivize what it does well and disincentivize the areas of creative play which it is ill-equipped to handle.
so that people will use the VTT which will have animations and colors.
And sound effects and all sorts of other audiovisual attention-grabbers.
 

This is kinda something that came up with the criticisms about 4e. (I'm REALLY SORRY I am bringing this up, but bear with me.)

A lot of people saw the changes in 4e as a sort of WoWifying the game. The thing is, those criticisms aren't completely off base. They were, in a way. The reason was, the idea behind 4e is that you were going to be playing with strangers - a lot. Particularly if they had gotten their VTT off the ground back then. That was how they were going to grow the hobby - you boot up your PC, or your X-box, hunt around a bit and join a game. Kind of an ongoing organized play convention that never ends.

Which meant you needed mechanics that serviced that kind of play - very clear, concise, transparent mechanics because, well, "trust your DM" doesn't work as well when you are playing with a new DM every week.

So, we got much more rigid mechanics.

I suppose if WotC were to try to do that again, I could kinda see them building mechanics, not so much to force people to play VTT, but, to make VTT play with strangers work easier. As it stands right now, that's very much not happening with D&D24. The changes that we've seen have zero to do with this sort of play. 4e was very much the Organized Play edition and the mechanics reflect that. 5e is very much not that. There are FAR too many vague mechanics in 5e for it to work like that.

But, if one were inclined to want to see WotC as trying to force gamers onto the VTT platform, then that would be the direction I would expect the mechanics to go. Granted, this has ZERO impact on creativity, but, 🤷
Arguably, though, 5e as-is already works best when you have some sort of automation tool, such as dnd beyond. For example, we have one player who likes to play magic character and has a difficult time understanding how characters are built, even after many years of playing. This player would definitely benefit from a character builder and automation tool, it's just that we don't play with them.
 

I have been very critical of WotC about the OGL disaster and about not releasing the other editions into creative commons yet. That said, just because a CEO made one monumentally bad decision, doesn't mean that he's sitting in the shadows twirling his mustache and laughing maniacally while plotting the demise of D&D.

I think the OP is being sensational in order to get people to come.
 

Arguably, though, 5e as-is already works best when you have some sort of automation tool, such as dnd beyond. For example, we have one player who likes to play magic character and has a difficult time understanding how characters are built, even after many years of playing. This player would definitely benefit from a character builder and automation tool, it's just that we don't play with them.
Well, really, this is nothing new. Particularly for casters. Like I said, even back in 3e, there were things like PC Gen and whatnot. People using spread sheets to play high level D&D weren't unheard of.

But, I do feel your pain. Having to ride on the shoulder of a caster player because the player refuses to spend the time to actually learn how their character works is PAINFUL. I am so tired of having to police casters every freaking time they do something because I've been burned so many times for just trusting that the players know what's what.
 

I could see a ruleset designed for VTT being better for some groups even without the VTT. The point remains is that one could see wotc start to design their ruleset assuming the use of automation tools (whether character creators or non-basic VTTs). It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, especially if most people are using dndbeyond and or a VTT, but it introduces a new tension in design.

But it isn't new? Rules for everything and everything being tightly defined existed in both 3rd and 4th edition. And both times they had automation/digitization of the rules in mind. This is a design tension, sure, but it isn't a NEW design tension. It has been with us for as long as WoTC has made DnD rules.
 

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