D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun

[Minigiant]

I ran Abomination vaults for a little bit as a method to learn PF2E, and found that the the complex rules made dungeon delving a chore. I ran and played in a 5E Rappan Athuk game with similar results, plus incongruities of matching that system to old school sensibilities. There were other attempts at dungeon crawling with PF1 and 3.x era D&D, all failures to some degree or another.

Upon discovering 5 Torches Deep, Shadowdark and other rules light D&D inspired games, i have come to the conclusion that dungeon crawling requires a rules light approach in order to be fun. Unwieldy, complex systems are slow, and turn the crawl into a grind. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, as the saying goes.

Do you agree? What are your thoughts on dungeon crawling versus rules complexity?

It's not about rules light.

It's about ONLY using the rules the DM and players both care about and NONE of anything else.

 

[Reynard]

It's not about rules light.

It's about ONLY using the rules the DM and players both care about and NONE of anything else.

That does not track with my experience. In fact, I'm not even sure what it means in a practical, at the table sense.

 

[Reynard]

Absolutely agree. Though I’d go a big step further. RPGs as a whole require lighter rules to be fun. Unwieldy, complex systems are slow and turn the whole game into a boring grind.

This I disagree with. I think deep, complex systems can be fun for certain styles of play and kinds of games/campaigns -- just not dungeon crawling. I wouldn't want to do a long term rulership and domain management/war campaign with lite rules, for example.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Exploration in PF2 is extremely fast, I don't understand what you're talking about.

Yeah, I'm not seeing.

We're doing the Abomination Vaults right now and in fact PF2's heavy customization and plethora of options is actually what saved what otherwise would have been a pretty standard sloggy dungeon crawl.

In fact, the fact that we all had weird healing abilities and exploration abilities kept us from just dying every ten minutes or spinning our wheels at all the unnecessary secret doors that make the dungeon navigable.

 

[Minigiant]

That does not track with my experience. In fact, I'm not even sure what it means in a practical, at the table sense.

I mean if your group cares about resource management then you need resource management mechanics.

If your group cares about vivid descriptions then you need rules for describing and interacting with things.

If your group cares about hazards and obstacles then you need heavy rules for hazard and obstacle.

If your group doesn't care about one of these things then then inclusion of one of these things is additional rules you do not need and heavier than what you require.

 

[Reynard]

I mean if your group cares about resource management then you need resource management mechanics.

Can you do dungeon crawling without resource management? I don't think you can.

If your group cares about vivid descriptions then you need rules for describing and interacting with things.

I don't think you need rules for describing things. What would that look like?

If your group cares about hazards and obstacles then you need heavy rules for hazard and obstacle.

Again, how do you dungeon crawl without obstacles and hazards?

If your group doesn't care about one of these things then then inclusion of one of these things is additional rules you do not need and heavier than what you require.

I am not really talking about eliminating important aspects of dungeon crawling to make the game lighter, I am talking about building systems that are concise and quickly resolved but still essential. Things like slot encumbrance is a good example, as are supply dice.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Absolutely agree. Though I’d go a big step further. RPGs as a whole require lighter rules to be fun. Unwieldy, complex systems are slow and turn the whole game into a boring grind.

I agree. But yet, Pathfinder and 3E are loved by many. There are folks out there who love the complexity and detail of systems like that. I don't get it, but to each his own.

 

[TiQuinn]

It's not about rules light.

It's about ONLY using the rules the DM and players both care about and NONE of anything else.

This is the kind of statement designed to create arguments and reveals nothing of importance. It is automatically contrary for contrariness’ sake.

 

[Voadam]

I don't really consider 1e rules light. Dungeon crawling in B/X, 1e, 2e, 3e, Pathfinder 1e, 4e, and 5e has been fun for me.

I am not really big on resource management though, just on dungeon explorations, vivid interesting settings and descriptions, neat phenomena that might be hazards or traps, and encounters and fights.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

This is the kind of statement designed to create arguments and reveals nothing of importance. It is automatically contrary for contrariness’ sake.

I don't agree with that poster at all. I find your statement, though, to be guilty of what you just said: designed to create arguments and revealing nothing of importance. If you don't agree with someone, that's cool. No need to post this kind of stuff though. The two of you just disagree, that's all. Be respectful of your fellow posters.