D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun

[Remathilis]

See, this is one of those things that always makes me laugh.

You have an opinion that "AD&D was not rules light" but that opinion is built around your particular set of experiences and how you play(ed) AD&D. It is entirely subjective.

AD&D is rules light when compared to WotC era D&D. PCs have limited capabilities, the rules are straight forward, and while it relies on charts a lot, those charts aren't complex. Where AD&D gets "rules heavy" is when people read Gygax's DMG and fail to understand that everything in it was an experiment and an optional rule. It was a collection of Gygax's thoughts on specific things. If you CHOOSE to integrate everything from the DMG into your AD&D campaign, of course it is complex (and at times contradictory).

So, no, saying "a system needs to be light for it to be good for dungeon crawling" is not the same as saying "AD&D isn't good for dungeon crawling." That's just you interpreting the statement in a way that allows you to be offended and feel attacked.

Congratulations, I guess.

Ah yes. The "AD&D works fine if you ignore chunks of it" argument.

 

[Reynard]

Ah yes. The "AD&D works fine if you ignore chunks of it" argument.

I'll say it again since it obviously bears repeating: many, even most, of the rules in the 1E DMG are optional and it says so right in the book.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'll say it again since it obviously bears repeating: many, even most, of the rules in the 1E DMG are optional and it says so right in the book.

All rules in any RPG are optional. I think it’d be hard to quantify whether AD&D is lighter than 3e and by how much, but regardless it’s not what I would call rules light. That’s why they called it advanced. The basic line, on the other hand, was genuinely rules light.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I think people are confusing topics and moving goal posts...including myself

There is a difference between saying
(a) Dungeoneering is not challenging and
(b) Dungeoneering requires light rules to be fun

 

[AnotherGuy]

So let us be specific what exactly makes it unfun?

Tracking provisions?
Tracking ammo?
Tracking the light resource?
Time management?
Continuous random encounters?
Zoom-in investigation/perception skills?
Same-y descriptors?
Slow depletion of resources (hit points, spell slots...etc) from exploration and traps as opposed to actual combat which burns things much faster?
Other....

 

[Charlaquin]

So let us be specific what exactly makes it unfun?

Tracking provisions?
Tracking ammo?
Tracking the light resource?
Time management?
Continuous random encounters?
Zoom-in investigation/perception skills?
Same-y descriptors?
Slow depletion of resources (hit points, spell slots...etc) from exploration and traps as opposed to actual combat which burns things much faster?
Other....

No. All of those things (except same-y descriptors) are what make dungeon exploration fun. They’re what form the core gameplay challenge of dungeon exploration. The thing is, those things feel tedious when they’re just thrown in because “those are things D&D does” but aren’t actually important to the core gameplay challenge. As has been the case for basically all of WotC’s versions of D&D.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Don't think you necessarily need "light" rules. What you need are flexible, adaptable rules--which may or may not be "light" in the strict sense.

This is one of the areas where a well-run Skill Challenge shines brightly. Especially if you apply some of the tweaks and developments the community came up with over time to enhance them further. I've had several very fun SCs that were exploration-focused and were some of the coolest "simple" things I've done in TTRPGing (e.g., things that that weren't "epic big boss battle" or "achieving apotheosis" or the like, obviously).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No. All of those things (except same-y descriptors) are what make dungeon exploration fun. They’re what form the core gameplay challenge of dungeon exploration. The thing is, those things feel tedious when they’re just thrown in because “those are things D&D does” but aren’t actually important to the core gameplay challenge. As has been the case for basically all of WotC’s versions of D&D.

Design done because it "has to" be there per tradition or received wisdom tends to be bad, yeah. Design with focused intent, pursuing a clear and defined design goal, almost always produces a better experience in play.

Just another reason why the dogmatic insistence that game design is pure art, an auteur's work of unadulterated creative expression, holds back actually developing more engaging, more enjoyable gameplay for a lot of users.

 

[TiQuinn]

So let us be specific what exactly makes it unfun?

Tracking provisions?
Tracking ammo?
Tracking the light resource?
Time management?
Continuous random encounters?
Zoom-in investigation/perception skills?
Same-y descriptors?
Slow depletion of resources (hit points, spell slots...etc) from exploration and traps as opposed to actual combat which burns things much faster?
Other....

I think those things can be fun but I think the biggest determinant of whether something is fun is how much time it takes to get to your turn in the game. That can be combat or that can be some interaction with your environment. Whether you are managing resources like ammo and provisions, or hit points and spell points, it shouldn't make a difference as long as what happens with managing those resources is compelling and interesting. I think the worst thing is sitting there waiting for your turn to act in the game and make something happen.

 

[Reynard]

So let us be specific what exactly makes it unfun?

Tracking provisions?
Tracking ammo?
Tracking the light resource?
Time management?
Continuous random encounters?
Zoom-in investigation/perception skills?
Same-y descriptors?
Slow depletion of resources (hit points, spell slots...etc) from exploration and traps as opposed to actual combat which burns things much faster?
Other....

That's not what I am talking about. Those aren't "heavy rules" they are part of the gameplay loop (as @Charlaquin said).

What I mean is a game with 1000 character options and a bunch of situational modifiers and multiple steps to achieving singular and simple results are "rules heavy" and make dungeon crawling unfun. Complex, long, grindy combats. System where you have to count up a bunch of situational modifiers before you can make the roll to do whatever. Basically, modern D&D system isms.