D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
For the "rules" is it mostly just all Combat?
Like in 5E, with each player having a spotlight on their individual super hero super star character that has a ton of combat options.......combat can take forever.
But in games like 1E, each player just takes a very simple direct action on their turn. Combat is quick.
Go through ten monster filled rooms in 5e.....takes all night. But in 1E you can go through a monster filled level of a Metadungeon in an hour.
But most games are lite when it comes to non combat stuff.
But here players want the heavy crunchy rules. "Oh my character encountered whatever, a roll a 22 on a whatever check to bypass the whatever". And zoom, you go through dungeon rooms in no time.
The style of role playing acting immersion, can take a while. "Ok, the floor of this room is covered in a green oil from wall to wall. How do you get to the other door 30 feet away." Well, a lot of players would be stumped....just sit there and do nothing. Only a few players have the ability to just role play act and do something in the fictional game world with no rules. So this can take a long long time with the players that are not in the right mindset.
Like in 5E, with each player having a spotlight on their individual super hero super star character that has a ton of combat options.......combat can take forever.
But in games like 1E, each player just takes a very simple direct action on their turn. Combat is quick.
Go through ten monster filled rooms in 5e.....takes all night. But in 1E you can go through a monster filled level of a Metadungeon in an hour.
But most games are lite when it comes to non combat stuff.
But here players want the heavy crunchy rules. "Oh my character encountered whatever, a roll a 22 on a whatever check to bypass the whatever". And zoom, you go through dungeon rooms in no time.
The style of role playing acting immersion, can take a while. "Ok, the floor of this room is covered in a green oil from wall to wall. How do you get to the other door 30 feet away." Well, a lot of players would be stumped....just sit there and do nothing. Only a few players have the ability to just role play act and do something in the fictional game world with no rules. So this can take a long long time with the players that are not in the right mindset.
ezo
Hero
Fine, you can think that--- but you'd be wrong. You might not realize it, but there it is.
This isn't plausible at all, at least for any of my RPGing.
A dungeon has a few key features, when it comes to processes of play:
*A dungeon makes certain aspects of the fiction highly salient (architecture and furniture) while tending to subordinate the relevance of many others (things like colours, time of day, economic relationships and techniques of production, etc);
*Related to the above point, the dungeon as a s setting is very sparse - almost artificially so - such that it is plausible for the GM to actually document all the salient elements of the fiction (the map aspires to present the architecture comprehensively, and the key aspires to document all the furniture);
*When it comes to framing scenes, there is an extremely tight process: the players tell the GM where their PCs move and what portals their PCs open and/or look through, the GM plots those moves on the map, the GM refers to their key to work out what the PCs might see or encounter, and the GM frames scenes by reference to what the key tells them;
*Closely related to the above, when it comes to resolving declared actions, the GM is often able to refer to the key and to declare the outcomes of actions by direct "intuition" of the fiction: eg the walls set barriers to where the players can have their PCs walk and look; the results of declarations like "We open the door" or "We look through the grille" can be read directly off the key; etc.
*Related to the above point, the dungeon as a s setting is very sparse - almost artificially so - such that it is plausible for the GM to actually document all the salient elements of the fiction (the map aspires to present the architecture comprehensively, and the key aspires to document all the furniture);
*When it comes to framing scenes, there is an extremely tight process: the players tell the GM where their PCs move and what portals their PCs open and/or look through, the GM plots those moves on the map, the GM refers to their key to work out what the PCs might see or encounter, and the GM frames scenes by reference to what the key tells them;
*Closely related to the above, when it comes to resolving declared actions, the GM is often able to refer to the key and to declare the outcomes of actions by direct "intuition" of the fiction: eg the walls set barriers to where the players can have their PCs walk and look; the results of declarations like "We open the door" or "We look through the grille" can be read directly off the key; etc.
Changing any of these features completely changes the processes of play: the key ceases to be comprehensive; many other things become potentially salient (eg what are the social dynamics of a particular town or family or business enterprise); very few action declarations can be resolved by direct intuition of the fiction; etc.
These vast differences are why the most famous reasonably early D&D adventure that tried to seriously depart from the dungeon crawl framework - namely the DL modules - had to rely almost entirely on railroading to make the scene framing and action resolution "work" as they were intended to.
ezo
Hero
It is entirely plausible, but it isn't my job to try to convince you, and I have neither the time nor inclination to do so. If you really think about it, you'll understand eventually in all likelihood, and if you don't--well, that's fine for you of course.
On the one hand, Gygax didn't articulate things with the technical precision that I have done in my post. On the other, though, it's obvious that he (and presumably Arneson too?) was aware of the issue: this is revealed by the fact that the rules for getting lost and for evasion/escape in a dungeon are based around intuitive application of the fiction as the players declare where their PCs travel on the map, whereas the rules for getting lost and for evasion/escape in the wilderness are based on dice rolls. There's no pretence that the map-and-key methods that work in dungeon play can be applied to wilderness play.
So when you assert that there is actually no difference, the inference that I draw is that you use railroading as your framing and resolution method regardless of the fictional backdrop to the players' declared actions. That's the only way I can make sense of what you're saying.
ezo
Hero
Actually, it is quite the opposite. It would easier and less time-consuming to explain in person.
Dungeon Exploration is much more about how you choose to play the game then any rules.
Take two groups:
Group A. The game here sort of starts at 6pm and most players will show up before 8 pm or so. It's a relaxed fun atmosphere and everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You tube videos and goofs off. Maybe, sometime before 8 pm someone will mention "hey lets play a little D&D game". The group will sort of start gaming for a couple minutes, then everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You Tube videos and goofs off. And game a bit and goof off a lot. And even while gaming the pace is slow. The players are random and disorganized and just sort of have thier characters stumble through the vague game world. Most of the players don't know the rules and game information. Worse the game has to be stopped 17 times when a player complains about something and the DM wants to "talk about it". So doing even two rooms in a dungeon exploration can take an hour.
Group Z. The game starts at 6pm. Players that don't make it, don't play. All the good players are there by 5:30. The game starts with full deep role playing immersion. Should a player waste even a few seconds of game time goofing off, they will be sent home. Each player if focused on role play acting out their character. All the players know all the rules they need too. Any player asking a dumb rule question will simply be sent home. The players role play act a lot like a tactical squad raiding an area. They clear rooms and move through the dungeon with speed and grace. No player complains about anything during the game. And other then Breaks, the DM will never pause the game to talk. So whole dungeon levels can be gone through in an hour.
Take two groups:
Group A. The game here sort of starts at 6pm and most players will show up before 8 pm or so. It's a relaxed fun atmosphere and everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You tube videos and goofs off. Maybe, sometime before 8 pm someone will mention "hey lets play a little D&D game". The group will sort of start gaming for a couple minutes, then everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You Tube videos and goofs off. And game a bit and goof off a lot. And even while gaming the pace is slow. The players are random and disorganized and just sort of have thier characters stumble through the vague game world. Most of the players don't know the rules and game information. Worse the game has to be stopped 17 times when a player complains about something and the DM wants to "talk about it". So doing even two rooms in a dungeon exploration can take an hour.
Group Z. The game starts at 6pm. Players that don't make it, don't play. All the good players are there by 5:30. The game starts with full deep role playing immersion. Should a player waste even a few seconds of game time goofing off, they will be sent home. Each player if focused on role play acting out their character. All the players know all the rules they need too. Any player asking a dumb rule question will simply be sent home. The players role play act a lot like a tactical squad raiding an area. They clear rooms and move through the dungeon with speed and grace. No player complains about anything during the game. And other then Breaks, the DM will never pause the game to talk. So whole dungeon levels can be gone through in an hour.
Vaalingrade
Legend
Group A sounds like so much more fun a group of friends.
Too bad the fire marshal would never allow them to get together given how much straw they're made of...
Too bad the fire marshal would never allow them to get together given how much straw they're made of...
I tried to make it work, but I ultimately found PF2 lacking for what I wanted out of exploration. It wasn’t due to system complexity but what it and the tools it does have both lacked.
