D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun

[ezo]

Dungeon Exploration is much more about how you choose to play the game then any rules.

Take two groups:

Group A. The game here sort of starts at 6pm and most players will show up before 8 pm or so. It's a relaxed fun atmosphere and everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You tube videos and goofs off. Maybe, sometime before 8 pm someone will mention "hey lets play a little D&D game". The group will sort of start gaming for a couple minutes, then everyone sits around, tells jokes, watches You Tube videos and goofs off. And game a bit and goof off a lot. And even while gaming the pace is slow. The players are random and disorganized and just sort of have thier characters stumble through the vague game world. Most of the players don't know the rules and game information. Worse the game has to be stopped 17 times when a player complains about something and the DM wants to "talk about it". So doing even two rooms in a dungeon exploration can take an hour.

Group Z. The game starts at 6pm. Players that don't make it, don't play. All the good players are there by 5:30. The game starts with full deep role playing immersion. Should a player waste even a few seconds of game time goofing off, they will be sent home. Each player if focused on role play acting out their character. All the players know all the rules they need too. Any player asking a dumb rule question will simply be sent home. The players role play act a lot like a tactical squad raiding an area. They clear rooms and move through the dungeon with speed and grace. No player complains about anything during the game. And other then Breaks, the DM will never pause the game to talk. So whole dungeon levels can be gone through in an hour.

Between Groups A and Z, I prefer mine around S or T.

 

[Remathilis]

Like in 5E, with each player having a spotlight on their individual super hero super star character that has a ton of combat options.......combat can take forever.

But in games like 1E, each player just takes a very simple direct action on their turn. Combat is quick.

In 1e, those actions mostly boil down to "make an attack" or "cast a spell". Classes don't have much else they can do. There is no skill system per se (and even skills that do exist, like thief skills, don't work in combat), and few classes get any active use abilities (turn undead, shape changing on a druid, and some monk features). Everything else is passive or uses a spell slot.

I mean, we could probably get Pathfinder or 5e back to AD&D levels of speed if we were willing to sacrifice feats, skills, and 75% of all class abilities (such as smite, rage, or bard song) but I don't think that would be overly popular outside the OSR movement...

 

[Mannahnin]

I mean, we could probably get Pathfinder or 5e back to AD&D levels of speed if we were willing to sacrifice feats, skills, and 75% of all class abilities (such as smite, rage, or bard song) but I don't think that would be overly popular outside the OSR movement...

One reason my top two favorite editions are B/X and 4E.

The first gives me simple and light, easily house-ruled, speed of play. The other gives me tactical depth and complexity.

 

[bloodtide]

In 1e, those actions mostly boil down to "make an attack" or "cast a spell". Classes don't have much else they can do. There is no skill system per se (and even skills that do exist, like thief skills, don't work in combat), and few classes get any active use abilities (turn undead, shape changing on a druid, and some monk features). Everything else is passive or uses a spell slot.

This is my point. I games like 1E the player does not just play the character sheet only do the mechanical rule actions their sheet allows.

And RPG can be so much more then "my character does Rule#112".

I mean, we could probably get Pathfinder or 5e back to AD&D levels of speed if we were willing to sacrifice feats, skills, and 75% of all class abilities (such as smite, rage, or bard song) but I don't think that would be overly popular outside the OSR movement...

But, again, it's not the quantity of rules. A game can have 20,000 rules, but it does not matter with the right players and right DM.

Exploration is a different type of game play. A lot of gamers just want endless combat. I lot of gamers just want pure rule mechanics. And a lot of gamers don't care about details. None of those groups like exploration.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I ran Abomination vaults for a little bit as a method to learn PF2E, and found that the the complex rules made dungeon delving a chore. I ran and played in a 5E Rappan Athuk game with similar results, plus incongruities of matching that system to old school sensibilities. There were other attempts at dungeon crawling with PF1 and 3.x era D&D, all failures to some degree or another.

Upon discovering 5 Torches Deep, Shadowdark and other rules light D&D inspired games, i have come to the conclusion that dungeon crawling requires a rules light approach in order to be fun. Unwieldy, complex systems are slow, and turn the crawl into a grind. The juice isn't worth the squeeze, as the saying goes.

Do you agree? What are your thoughts on dungeon crawling versus rules complexity?

I'll present a sort-of counterpoint, but it'll require sharing my premise. And that premise is:

Shadowrun is, at least in large part, a dungeon crawl game. Its presented in a different context, but it has all the same "proceed through dangerous ground, deal with hostile opponents, get valuables and get out" aura.

And its crunchy as can be. So obviously the need you're suggesting doesn't apply to a large number of people.

 

[Reynard]

I'll present a sort-of counterpoint, but it'll require sharing my premise. And that premise is:

Shadowrun is, at least in large part, a dungeon crawl game. Its presented in a different context, but it has all the same "proceed through dangerous ground, deal with hostile opponents, get valuables and get out" aura.

And its crunchy as can be. So obviously the need you're suggesting doesn't apply to a large number of people.

I don't think Shadowrun is a dungeon crawl game at all. It's primarily a B&E and heist game. Dungeon crawling is a different thing entirely.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I don't think Shadowrun is a dungeon crawl game at all. It's primarily a B&E and heist game. Dungeon crawling is a different thing entirely.

What else is there to dungeon crawling than breaking, entering and exploding the LAPD's entire month's supply of pepper spray on top of a human trafficker's boat?

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't think Shadowrun is a dungeon crawl game at all. It's primarily a B&E and heist game. Dungeon crawling is a different thing entirely.

And I consider B&E games with offensive security a dungeon crawl game in everything but name. So we're at an impasse.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't think Shadowrun is a dungeon crawl game at all. It's primarily a B&E and heist game. Dungeon crawling is a different thing entirely.

What does "dungeon crawling" mean to you? How does it differ from heisting and B&E?

And I consider B&E games with offensive security a dungeon crawl game in everything but name. So we're at an impasse.

What does B&E and counter-offensive heisting mean to you? How are these things expressed in terms of "dungeon crawling"?

 

[Reynard]

What does "dungeon crawling" mean to you? How does it differ from heisting and B&E?

The dungeon is an environment of its own. A B&E or heist is an adventure that happens in a confined space. A dungeon crawl is an exploration that happens in a particular kind of environment.