D&D General Hot Take: Dungeon Exploration Requires Light Rules To Be Fun

[Reynard]

Its just that I consider any adventure focused on the site explore a dungeon crawl. I get the feeling yours is more narrow than that even.

Yes, at least in that I don't think a hexcrawl is the same as a dungeon crawl, and I don't think urban exploration is the same as either of those things.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, at least in that I don't think a hexcrawl is the same as a dungeon crawl, and I don't think urban exploration is the same as either of those things.

I'm just hard pressed to see a particular distinction between "The whole session is going to be about penetrating this building, avoiding traps and alarms, fighting things when we must (but it'd be ideal if we could avoid that), doing what we came to do and picking up any side valuables along the way" as distinct from a dungeon crawl unless the latter has to mean its freeform to you, and that describes any number of Shadowrun missions.

 

[Reynard]

I'm just hard pressed to see a particular distinction between "The whole session is going to be about penetrating this building, avoiding traps and alarms, fighting things when we must (but it'd be ideal if we could avoid that), doing what we came to do and picking up any side valuables along the way" as distinct from a dungeon crawl unless the latter has to mean its freeform to you, and that describes any number of Shadowrun missions.

Let's see if I can articulate this in a way that gets my meaning across.

The dungeon crawl is a style of play in which tense exploration is the primary mode of play. The situation, potential dangers, routes and occupants are all mysteries to be discovered. Explicitly, you can't predict what you'll find or run into because of the nature of the dungeon crawl: the place is ancient and weird and has been occupied and abandoned a hundred times over. It's unpredictable and in some cases nonsensical.

By contrast, the heist or B&E is not an exploration of the unknown. If it is, you failed to do your research before trying to pull off the job. Of course the unexpected might occur, but that isn't the point.

Does that make sense?

 

[Velderan]

Let's see if I can articulate this in a way that gets my meaning across.

The dungeon crawl is a style of play in which tense exploration is the primary mode of play. The situation, potential dangers, routes and occupants are all mysteries to be discovered. Explicitly, you can't predict what you'll find or run into because of the nature of the dungeon crawl: the place is ancient and weird and has been occupied and abandoned a hundred times over. It's unpredictable and in some cases nonsensical.

By contrast, the heist or B&E is not an exploration of the unknown. If it is, you failed to do your research before trying to pull off the job. Of course the unexpected might occur, but that isn't the point.

Does that make sense?

Which definitely describes some of the Shadowrun games I played during the 2e days, minus the ancient part. Some Johnson hires you to break into a Corp’s super secret facility to steal something and there’s no intel available on what they’re doing in the facility. While searching for whatever it was you were paid to retrieve, you find out all kinds of weird stuff is going on and have to navigate all sorts of traps and such. Maybe it was just us having a background of playing AD&D but sometimes our Shadowrun games definitely worked like a dungeoncrawl minus the torch tracking.

 

[Reynard]

Which definitely describes some of the Shadowrun games I played during the 2e days, minus the ancient part. Some Johnson hires you to break into a Corp’s super secret facility to steal something and there’s no intel available on what they’re doing in the facility. While searching for whatever it was you were paid to retrieve, you find out all kinds of weird stuff is going on and have to navigate all sorts of traps and such. Maybe it was just us having a background of playing AD&D but sometimes our Shadowrun games definitely worked like a dungeoncrawl minus the torch tracking.

Sure. I didn't say you could only do a dungeon crawl in D&D. I just said that the dungeon crawl is a distinct style of play and kind of adventure. You can do it in Call of Cthulhu or Star Wars if you want. But most Shadowrun jobs are not dungeon crawls.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We still haven't ruled out Shadowrun though.

 

[payn]

Sure. I didn't say you could only do a dungeon crawl in D&D. I just said that the dungeon crawl is a distinct style of play and kind of adventure. You can do it in Call of Cthulhu or Star Wars if you want. But most Shadowrun jobs are not dungeon crawls.

Would you say something like Blades in the Dark would be the B&E equivalent?

 

[Reynard]

Would you say something like Blades in the Dark would be the B&E equivalent?

I have only played Blades a couple times (I prefer S&V) but I think it hits the broad "job" based RPG: heists, B&E, sabotage etc.

 

[Velderan]

Sure. I didn't say you could only do a dungeon crawl in D&D. I just said that the dungeon crawl is a distinct style of play and kind of adventure. You can do it in Call of Cthulhu or Star Wars if you want. But most Shadowrun jobs are not dungeon crawls.

But it is an example of a crunchier game working in a dungeon crawl style of play.

Personally I think the amount of rules doesn’t make the playstyle better or worse, my group is 9 levels into Abomination Vaults and has mostly enjoyed it as an intro to PF2e. The 2 complaints I have about Abomination Vaults is the monster placement is sometimes so close together that at times I had to remove an encounter until the group passed back through that area to have it make sense why the 2 encounters wouldn’t have just linked together due to noise and the small corridors at times hindered the tactical combat experience the system does so well. If I wasn’t playing on Foundry, that would be an easy fix just drawing wider hallways on a dry erase battlemap.

 

[Reynard]

But it is an example of a crunchier game working in a dungeon crawl style of play.

I still think a lighter ruleset make for much more enjoyable dungeon crawling, but to each their own. I definitely wouldn't want to run a real dungeon crawl in SR.