D&D (2024) D&D 2024 Rules Oddities (Kibbles’ Collected Complaints)

[TiQuinn]

Eh. A lot of this seems like extreme rule lawyer exploits like the old peasant railgun that I'll just say no to. It's like the dual-wielding hand crossbow being able to reload because it doesn't technically say you need a free hand.

Guess I'll know better once I actually read the text, but most of these are simple fixes, if they actually need fixing.

I’m having a bit of trouble following all of these changes without seeing the full text (and context) but based on what I’m understanding, I agree.

 

[tetrasodium]

all the more reason they should be fixed

Agreed

I hope not, that just means they are bad at their actual job

Alternatively... We've already got the lead rules designer on record explaining that one change to the ttrpg rules was made for his bg3 experience and the company head talking about how the company is going all in on digital... That's a design choice goal for a minor mod to a video game that usually gets lumped in with cheats & "trainers" not building a ttrpg.when designing for a ttrpg is a priority other than first and foremost in the rules for a ttrpg it's almost guaranteed that these sortscof problems will get printed

 

[DavyGreenwind]

In 5e 2014, web reads "Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw"

In D&D 2024 Web reads "The first time a creature enters the webs on a turn or starts its turn there, it must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw..."

I believe that "The first time" qualifier applies to the entire phrase "a creature enters its web on a turn or starts its turn there" and not separately to the two parts. In other words, it only makes the save once, because there's only one "first time" fulfilled by either entering the web on a turn or starting a turn there. Otherwise, it would've read "When a creature starts its turn, and when it enters the web on a turn, it must make a saving throw," or the like. In their wording, I detect they were trying to say (and not carefully enough) that only one ST is needed. It feels good to shove someone into a spider web and make them do the ST. Then they might get restrained while your allies have a turn.

 

[mamba]

I believe that "The first time" qualifier applies to the entire phrase "a creature enters its web on a turn or starts its turn there" and not separately to the two parts. In other words, it only makes the save once, because there's only one "first time" fulfilled by either entering the web on a turn or starting a turn there.

so if you enter the web and make your save, and do not exit it on your turn, there is no need to save a second time on your next turn? I'd say there clearly was one in 2014 and I would expect the same in 2024

Personally I will stick with the 2014 rule, I see no improvement in the new one, no idea why they changed it but I guess the new reading of it possibly taking two saves must be the intended one as it seems to be the only explanation for the change

 

[Leatherhead]

Welcome to the D&D Public Beta!

This is double biting, considering they had to sacrifice the biggest open playtest in TTRPG history for a PR campaign.

 

[mellored]

I guess you'd have to let me know what exploits in 5e 2014 you're looking for fixes in.

Of the ones I can think off...

• Coffeelock. There is... serious debate if this ever worked, but it was fully nerfed out.
• Infinite Simulacrum Chains. This one was... well, I don't think it was fixed, but some of people do. It's a pretty controversial one that comes down to the wording of Wish and what a 'requirement' (a word defined no where in the book) is.

Inescapable grapples: using expertise + reliable talent ment rogues could auto-grapple most creatures. No chance of escape.

Conjure 32 creatures * 2 attacks + crusaders mantle. = +64d4 damage per turn.

Level 2 moon druid turning into a level 5 fighter as a bonus action.

Repelling blast working on any sized creature (since you have it listed as a 2024 issue, it was the same in 2014).

True Stike being a trap option.

I could go on. But the new book is clearly better.

 

[mellored]

I was thinking more rules fixes (to things that previously needed Sage Advice or twitter threads to tell you how things actually worked) vs creating "problematic"/exploitable stuff as opposed to regular nerfs/buffs.

Rough guess is 1/4 the issues of 2014.

But I'll need to actually play it to get a better idea.

 

[KibblesTasty]

Inescapable grapples: using expertise + reliable talent ment rogues could auto-grapple most creatures. No chance of escape.

An interesting one; personally I don't think this is one I had much problem with all things considered just because a Tier 3 Grapple Rogue was never going to be a good build, but its probably for the best it doesn't work in D&D 2024!

I do quite dislike Reliable Talent in general personally, so the fly in the ointment there is that it got brought down 4 whole levels to level 7. Cannot say I'm a fan of that, but that's just in the 'power creep/more stuff' bucket, not a problem.

Conjure 32 creatures * 2 attacks + crusaders mantle. = +64d4 damage per turn.

Conjure Spells getting removed is a big one! I had that one on my first list before they asked about specifically exploits. Those spells never really did work the way people seemed to think since you couldn't pick what creature you wanted to optimize it that hard, but I think everyone is happier that we don't have worry about their either way.

Level 2 moon druid turning into a level 5 fighter as a bonus action.

...I mean, they get that level 3 now, so... I guess that's an improvement! They did get their free-HP nerfed pretty hard, but they got their AC in animal form buffed pretty hard (+5 for a bear). I suspect that's a nerf at low levels still, especially with everyone else powercreeping up pretty hard.

Repelling blast working on any sized creature (since you have it listed as a 2024 issue, it was the same in 2014).

If only they'd fixed it the other thing I'd be happy! But I guess that's worth at least a quarter of a point, we take those! I've already nerfed it to 1/turn in my games long ago, but I'll happily tack on the size limit.

True Stike being a trap option.

It's interesting here, because it makes everything else sort of a trap option, but I nothing else is as bad as it was. I'm not sure which I dislike more between powercreep and trap options, since both are pretty problematic, but I could see that being a +1, even if I think personally I'd probably count it the other way.

I could go on. But the new book is clearly better.

I'm glad some folks like D&D 2024. Personally, I don't think its for me, though I won't quite write the whole thing off yet. But that's more down to the subjective reasons than the 'broken stuff' reasons. I do think the book looks cooler, and art is definitely something else.

I think my plan (and what I imagine will be very common) will be to a steal a few of my favorite changes and incorporate them into my game, and leave the rest of them for others to enjoy, so to speak.

 

[mellored]

An interesting one; personally I don't think this is one I had much problem with all things considered just because a Tier 3 Grapple Rogue was never going to be a good build,

Auto-grapple + cunning action dash though Spiked Growth. You can kill many things without a chance of failure.

Toss in some bard levels to really crank up your grapple.

I suspect that's a nerf at low levels still, especially with everyone else powercreeping up pretty hard.

Big nerf at low levels. +5 AC but -25 HP.

It does scales better.

If only they'd fixed it the other thing I'd be happy! But I guess that's worth at least a quarter of a point, we take those! I've already nerfed it to 1/turn in my games long ago, but I'll happily tack on the size limit.

IMO, it was fine as is.
Warlocks got to do something unique.
And it's not like you hit with all rays every turn.

But that's more down to the subjective reasons than the 'broken stuff' reasons.

Each to their own. But I don't see a downside to having better balance and cleaner rules.

Not perfect obviously, but still an improvement.

And maybe not a $50 improvement. Especially if you already have Tasha's, which has half the changes.

 

[KibblesTasty]

Auto-grapple + cunning action dash though Spiked Growth. You can kill many things without a chance of failure.

I just find the new version of this much more trouble, since it comes online at much lower level, and now they can go more than twice as fast. Cheese grating people with Spike Growth has always been at thing, but its definitely at new peak in D&D 2024 so far. The system just has so much position control and ways to move and dropkick around the monsters. I'd personally just ban out Spike Growth from D&D 2024 if I kept playing it outside of playtesting for my own testing.

Each to their own. But I don't see a downside to having better balance and cleaner rules.

Not perfect obviously, but still an improvement.

Well, the downside is that many folks won't think balance is better or the rules are cleaner, such being the subjective nature of these things. I suspect the ones that do will switch, and the ones that don't, won't. Personally, I reckon I'm in the later camp at the end of the day. That's probably too deep to tackle holistically in my brief Sly Flourish-prompted visit to these forums though!

But I'll keep diving into the new rules either way for now, as it's sort of my job to know how they work, even if it currently looks like most my audience won't be switching over the new ruleset. It's been neat coming over to these forums and seeing a pretty unique set of perspectives compared to a lot of places though! Good mix of opinions here.

Thanks for all the thoughts! I enjoyed reading what you (and everyone else are) are thinking. I'll check back in on this thread a bit down the road if it is still going, and keep the list updated on the reddit post side for folks that want to add anything (and perhaps work on the mirror image list of the things improved by the edition as well if I don't see a good one floating around).