D&D (2024) Dancing bards and true strike.

[mellored]

Because if those thp are lost before the Glamour Bard has a chance to renew the thp that cannot be done. Cutting Words can be done in response to a large threat while preemptively granting thp can be whittled away through minor threats.

Still not seeing why you think it matters.
You take 20 damage from minor threats +20 damage from fireball = 40 damage.

-THP = 30 damage
-Cutting Words = 35

This also gets back to the Cutting Words preventing damage stacks with any source of thp while Mantle of Inspiration cannot.

That only matters if you take you take enough damage to go though your THP and your HP before you get a bonus action.

I.e. you have 50HP, 10 THP and get hit between 60 and 65 damage, and that's assuming you don't roll a 1 on cutting words.

Anything more and the Cutting Words won't help.
Anything less and you refresh the THP next turn.

Also, cutting words requires the caster within 60'. We are comparing the best case scenario for it. Something that doesn't happen every day. It does nothing against a fireball trap or long ranged attacks.

THP is far more universally useful.

The party is also mounts, animal companions, familiars, and possibly some retainers and NPC's in the area.

Familiars and mounts won't survive a fireball either way.

Using Mantle of Inspiration first thing in the morning wastes the movement granting portion of the effect

So?
Cutting Words doesn't have a movement option.

Yes, like Cutting Words is a useful alternative use.

Sometimes, yes.
Combat Inspiration is also useful on occasion. But that's not all the Valor Bard gets.
THP and going first is useful all the time.

We cannot consider Jack of all Trades a useful bonus and not consider proficiency, which is always the same or better, not a useful bonus. +3 is 3x better than +1. ;-)

Yes. and it applies to all skills.
Which is more than 3.

And I never said it was useless. I said it was not that strong. Mildly useful.

It's not just an alternative for spell slots. It's extra spells prepared from a large list and control over which spell levels. And I seem to have to repeat this a lot for some reason, but Magical Discoveries...

You have a limited number of spell slots.
If you use it to cast Firewall, you don't have the slot for Polymorph.

Alternative uses are not bad. But extra uses are better.

AND is better than OR.

...allows for cantrips as well, but Magical Secrets...

Ok. That's still an alternative use of your action. Upgrading Starry Whisp to Firebolt isn't much.

Actually, Guidance would count as an extra use. You're not going to be using it in combat, and you might as well double down on skills as a lore bard..

Ok, I'll give it a little more credit. Still think it's weakest if there is any serious combat in the game.

Can all bards trade out cantrips after 10?

Still not as good as giving half your party an extra turn in combat, or repeatable bonus action command.

The other "alternate BI dice use" transforms failed ability checks or attack rolls into successes. How is that not good?

It is good.
And all bards can do that at level 1 (including boosting saves which is probably the best use).

Turning a failed stealth check into a successful stealth check while using Invisibility seems hella useful.

And if you use Cuttiing Words, that's 1 less stealth check that can succeed.

Are there situations where reducing an enemy is better than boosting an ally? Of course.
But it doesn't necessarily happen every day.

Peerless Skill is lit playing to the skills aspect of a bard.

Yes.
But again, if you use it on yourself, that's 1 less skill check someone else makes.

Unless you are constantly trying to do stuff you have a small chance of succeeding all, or the occasional bad luck, your not getting extra BI.

Compared to half damage from fireballs, or being unhitable from all the low Cha enemies. With no BI cost.

Might be better than Valor 14 though, which has competition for the bonus action. And it doesn't qualify for any "attack action" boost like great weapon master or nick. But it's still no BI cost.

Dance bards just don't need the instrument to do it.

Fair

Tandem Footwork is good, but I don't agree that it's the best in every situation. It's pretty limited to combat, and it will use up a lot of those BI dice.

If your not worried about combat, then sure. Valor and Dance are not helping, Glamor only does a little, and Lore would be top.

Yup, a 16 AC instead of a 15 AC.

16 scaling to 18.
+1 to +3, similar to Lore skills.

Let's call those equal. Ignore the dance performance.

At level 3, that leaves
Lore: affect 3 rolls.
Dance: affect 3 rolls and make 3 attacks.

A very occasional attack. Dance is using those BI dice on Tandem Footwork, which doesn't generate that attack.

Going first generates an extra attack.
It might just be the Barbarian's attack.

Useful, but the 5' range tends to minimize the size of that group.

Still doesn’t cost BI.

They have the best AC options until much higher levels. The extra attack isn't that occasional. It's pretty much every time they cast a spell at 14th level. At 6th level if they want to cast a cantrip they might as well attack and cast a cantrip. At 14th level if they cast a spell they get a bonus action attack.

Valor gets more extra attacks than Dance. Yes.
But make one of those a fighter going first attack, and I say Dance is a little ahead.

It's what type of bard I'm making that suits them.

Absolutely. Play what you will have fun with. Balance is good enough.

It's not like the 2014 elemental monk or Beastmaster.

 

[mellored]

I will add that Valor 6 is one of the best features in the game when multiclassing.

 

[Remathilis]

the whole subclass is based on the fact that someone at WotC saw some stupid Youtube video and figured that capoeira is a legitimate fighting skills.
Spoiler. It's not.

So subclass deserves to be the worst.

Dancer is a fairly popular archetype in other games. Final Fantasy is a good example of that. Dervishes, acrobats, and other dextrous types of combatants. I was surprised it took this long to get one.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Dancer is a fairly popular archetype in other games. Final Fantasy is a good example of that. Dervishes, acrobats, and other dextrous types of combatants. I was surprised it took this long to get one.

Blade dancer has been around for a long time.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I took it as a Bollywood hero. One of my players loves those big dance numbers and she's excited to try one out next game.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I took it as a Bollywood hero. One of my players loves those big dance numbers and she's excited to try one out next game.

I've a character in reserve named Soul Train whose a dancing "necromancer", taking the soul of the dying out for one last night of dancing, slowly moving them toward the afterlife.

That bard could be a nice chassis for them.

 

[Neonchameleon]

the whole subclass is based on the fact that someone at WotC saw some stupid Youtube video and figured that capoeira is a legitimate fighting skills.
Spoiler. It's not.

So subclass deserves to be the worst.

You ... do know magic isn't real, right? I don't see why a dance bard deserves to be worse than a wizard or we can't have unrealistic fantasies working out in D&D

 

[Horwath]

You ... do know magic isn't real, right? I don't see why a dance bard deserves to be worse than a wizard or we can't have unrealistic fantasies working out in D&D

you do know that something is a joke?

 

[ECMO3]

Because if those thp are lost before the Glamour Bard has a chance to renew the thp that cannot be done. Cutting Words can be done in response to a large threat while preemptively granting thp can be whittled away through minor threats.

IME Glamour Bards were the best Bards available in 5E (not counting Swords if melee was your thing).

Mantle of Inspiration is really strong and I used it a lot on my 1-20 Eladrin Glamor Bard. The movement you can get out of it is awesome, escpecially moving allies so you can drop your own AOE.

In 2024 you no longer can get the temp hps or movement yourself. I think this makes the ability substantially weaker. The GB also got Beguiling Magic, which is a much better combat ability than Entralling Performance, but EP was super useful, and nearly situationally OP, out of combat.

I have not played a 2024 GB yet, so I am not really sure how it is going to compare overall.

 

[Seramus]

"Weak" is both relative and subjective. It just depends on the comparison being made and what the person doing the comparison values.

I agree, since I come at it from a completely different angle. I look at the Dance Bard and think of how many abilities are useful outside of combat, the other 66% of the game. You've got Dance Virtuoso at 3rd, and then... Leading Evasion at 14th.