D&D (2024) Dancing bards and true strike.

[mellored]

I'm not reading that. Man they are all good subclasses on the bard. I prefer the valor bard myself.

Well most of his arguments is that reducing 5 damage on an AoE against 7+ allies will prevent more damage than giving 4 allies 10 THP.

IMO, 7+ people getting hit with an AoE is rare, THP can prevent any type of damage, and THP can he applied out of battle so you still have your reaction to cast Absorb Elements or whatever.

Supplementary, I argue cutting words and Peerless Skill are not significantly better than giving inspiration to an ally. Better than nothing of course, but just kind of meh.


I do agree that you should play what you want and the balance between them is a lot better than before.

 

[mellored]

I assume the party will live instead of die

This is probably the main difference of opinion.

If you assume the party will live, then extra AC, THP, or going first in combat has no value.

Then that leaves Lore as the best, and Valor as completely worthless. Glamor is still fairly strong out of combat though.

I assume there is a chance you will die in combat.

 

[Ashrym]

Supplementary, I argue cutting words and Peerless Skill are not significantly better than giving inspiration to an ally. Better than nothing of course, but just kind of meh.

I can summarize this part for ppl who don't want to read the long version, lol.

Sometimes you want the enemy to fail a check. Lore bards can give the bonus to an ally to make the check or cause the enemy to fail a check. Other bards can only help the ally make the check.

Sometimes the bard is the one who needs to make the check. Peerless Skill allows for this.

Because Peerless Skill can be applied to any skill as needed Lore bards become significantly better at every skill than other bards.

Because Peerless Skill does not cost BI if it fails anyway at the end of the day 100% of the BI dice used on Peerless Skill have turned failures into successes while approximately 1/3 BI dice handed out failed despite the attempt.

There's also other useful comments in my post such as "If Jack of all Trades is a (limited) proficiency bonus that means all bards should gain advantage on checks using tool proficiency they have with the synergy benefit." ;-)

 

[mellored]

Sometimes you want the enemy to fail a check.
Sometimes the bard is the one who needs to make the check.

I agree. Sometimes using your BI that way is better than using on an ally.

But all the time you will want to use it to get your party to win initiative... While also having higher AC, getting extra punches, and taking half damage from breath attacks.

 

[Ashrym]

I agree. Sometimes using your BI that way is better than using on an ally.

But all the time you will want to use it to get your party to win initiative... While also having higher AC, getting extra punches, and taking half damage from breath attacks.

And if you're good at surprise you get that initiative benefit without spending BI dice on it.

And if you transform misses into hits with a cantrip you can accomplish more than those extra attacks.

Dance bards have obvious advantages. The Lore bard's just have different advantages. They're more subtle in how skills interact in the system.

 

[mellored]

And if you're good at surprise you get that initiative benefit without spending BI dice on it.

Still need to do the math on that.
Seems like even with advantage, one party member could probably still use a boost.

And if you transform misses into hits with a cantrip you can accomplish more than those extra attacks.

All bard can turn a miss into a hit.

 

[Ashrym]

Still need to do the math on that.
Seems like even with advantage, one party member could probably still use a boost.

A boost to initiative is always useful. There's no question that's a solid ability for Dance bards. It's the cost associated compared to Lore bard's leveraging skills and extra spell options to get that advantage that manifests from those options that's useful.

All bard can turn a miss into a hit.

Not quite.

A Lore bard who spent 5 BI on attack rolls to hit has hit 5 times.

5 BI dice granted to try and turn a miss into a hit has hit 3 or 4 times.

This is true because both can still miss on a low BI roll but then the Lore bard keeps the die to spend again later. Every die spent this way eventually succeeds in creating that hit from a miss.

In practice the Lore bard has used the same 5 dice 6 or 7 attempts to create those 5 successes. The BI dice just fail to create that success a portion of the time.

2 more successful hits from Peerless Skill with a cantrip attack at those levels are about the same damage as the Agile Strikes even though 5 Agile Strikes are attempted because those Agile Strikes are each less damage and can also miss.

It's a comparison of 5 dice spent against 5 dice spent versus 5 dice spent.

 

[mellored]

In practice the Lore bard has used the same 5 dice 6 or 7 attempts to create those 5 successes. The BI dice just fail to create that success a portion of the time.

In practice a 14th level bard is not missing with 7 attack cantrips a day.

You have enough spell slots you may not even need to use a cantrip, and half the time you will hit.

Also, not using a BI when you fail a climb check and fall into lava is not exactly a prize. Sure you can spam it on low risk diplomacy checks to flirt with every guy in town. Never said it couldn't be fun.

But it might net you 1 or 2 extra BI per day.

Let's say the party of 5 takes 2 black dragon breath weapon attacks (54) per day. And you use your extra 2 BI on that, and one ally is standing next to you.

2 uses * 6.5 damage * 5 targets = 65 damage reduced.
Vs
27 (half) * 2 uses * 2 (you and one adjacent ally) = 108 damage reduced.

And Dance scales as monsters damage scales.


Though...
Conjure Minor Elemental + Scorching Ray + Peerless Skill looks quite juicy. Even with Foresight you probably will miss several times, and it's absolutely worth using BI on those.

 

[Ashrym]

In practice a 14th level bard is not missing with 7 attack cantrips a day.

You have enough spell slots you may not even need to use a cantrip, and half the time you will hit.

It doesn't matter if it's attack cantrips or attack spells that might be used instead.

Using cantrips, like using skill checks, has the added benefit of saving slots for prepared spells for other uses. Now that bards have better attack cantrips those cantrips can be leveraged that way more.

Per day isn't a relevant marker here. It's uses over time. For every X number spent in that way Y results have occurred.

Per day requires 15-20 attacks being used this way which is only depends on how the player is choosing to use those actions in combat and to use those spell slots in other ways outside of combat.

Lore bard abilities create flexibility in how the PC uses actions effectively in and out of combat.

Also, not using a BI when you fail a climb check and fall into lava is not exactly a prize. Sure you can spam it on low risk diplomacy checks to flirt with every guy in town. Never said it couldn't be fun.

Fun is the point of playing.

I would use these abilities when they matter. That was an assumption of throwing BI dice away when they don't matter, which isn't a useful assumption.

Weird take, but in doing so the fact that every failed Peerless Skill use that fails is still adding up replacement BI dice compared to every BI spammed on fun under the same assumption that continue to be lost hasn't changed.

Mass spamming under your scenario increases the rate per day or rate per rest as Superior Inspiration comes into play or by low level spell slot spell slot supplement.

The only thing spamming does is increase the rate at which replacement BI is generated.

 

[mellored]

It doesn't matter if it's attack cantrips or attack spells that might be used instead.

Which spell would you be using?

Fun is the point of playing.

Of course. Never said you shouldn't play a Lore bard.

I'm just saying it's mildly weaker than the other subclasses. Because Bardic Inspiration, Cutting Words, and Peerless Skill compete for the same resource.

The only thing spamming does is increase the rate at which replacement BI is generated.

If you use 15 on Peerless Skill, and fail 40% of the time, that's 6 + 40% of failing again 2.4 and 40% chance of failing again 0.96
= 9.36 extra BI per day.

You need to subtract the fact that Cutting Words is now doing 0, but would still make it a decent feature.

You just need something worth spamming.