D&D 2E Let's Read the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB+DMG!

[PHATsakk43]

Yeah, when we moved from RC BECMI we also did 3d6 down the line.

When you’re 12, you sort of believe what is in the book, which was that bad scores was “part of the fun” and anything that made the game easier was wrong.

For the first several campaigns I ran, it was irrelevant if classes were optional or not, as I don’t think anyone ever rolled anything higher than a 13.

 

[Mannahnin]

After starting with BECMI and then reading 1E, 14 year old me was nonplussed at the 3d6 down the line instructions in the 2E PH. They were obviously not what the ability score tables were designed for, but Zeb's guidance was indeed to accept crappy or mediocre scores. Gary's advice in the 1E PH that an AD&D character would normally need at least two scores of 15 or better made more sense. As opposed to BECMI, in which just having a 13 or better in your prime requisite was pretty decent, and normally easy to achieve, thanks to the point-swapping rules.

The 2E DMG gave some alternatives, of course, of which 4d6dl (now Method V) was the most popular, as it has been for most of D&D's history.

 

[PHATsakk43]

After starting with BECMI and then reading 1E, 14 year old me was nonplussed at the 3d6 down the line instructions in the 2E PH. They were obviously not what the ability score tables were designed for, but Zeb's guidance was indeed to accept crappy or mediocre scores. Gary's advice in the 1E PH that an AD&D character would normally need at least two scores of 15 or better made more sense. As opposed to BECMI, in which just having a 13 or better in your prime requisite was pretty decent, and normally easy to achieve, thanks to the point-swapping rules.

The 2E DMG gave some alternatives, of course, of which 4d6dl (now Method V) was the most popular, as it has been for most of D&D's history.

Yeah, the direction in 2E was sort of all over the place.

On one hand, you were constantly warned that mediocrity was to be exalted and that a power-up should be rare, or one would risk a “Monte Haul campaign” <shudder>, yet there was all this optional stuff that was sprinkled around that was there for those who didn’t want play “right” and demanded such largess.

The odd exception was these specific options, that were encouraged, such as the proficiency section. The editorial voice was definitely not as strong as Gygax, but it was still there.

Then even though the core game has all this poo-pooing of power gaming options, 2E is mostly remembered for the amount of power-fantasy bloat in the splats.

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, the direction in 2E was sort of all over the place.

On one hand, you were constantly warned that mediocrity was to be exalted and that a power-up should be rare, or one would risk a “Monte Haul campaign” <shudder>, yet there was all this optional stuff that was sprinkled around that was there for those who didn’t want play “right” and demanded such largess.

The odd exception was these specific options, that were encouraged, such as the proficiency section. The editorial voice was definitely not as strong as Gygax, but it was still there.

Eh, there was SOME, and it was sadly still a "power gaming is bad, kids (never mind that we who are writing this had fun playing over the top campaigns)", but as always the big flaw in 2E is inadequate direction and guidance, bending over backward to try to be all things to all D&D players.

Then even though the core game has all this poo-pooing of power gaming options, 2E is mostly remembered for the amount of power-fantasy bloat in the splats.

Eh, the first wave were notoriously underpowered in a lot of ways. Especially the poor Priests. Though later books had more nonsense.

 

[James Gasik]

Eh, there was SOME, and it was sadly still a "power gaming is bad, kids (never mind that we who are writing this had fun over the top campaigns)", but as always the big flaw in 2E is inadequate direction and guidance, bending over backward to try to be all things to all D&D players.

I have this sentiment about current editions as well.

Eh, the first wave were notoriously underpowered in a lot of ways. Especially the poor Priests. Though later books had more nonsense.

I feel the first break was the Complete Book of Dwarves. Where the first four books were like "multiclassed characters don't need kits" suddenly we had multiclassed kits for Dwarves.

But Complete Book of Elves is where things really started to get bonkers. Elves with 19 Strength! Elves are the superior race! Elves have unwritten resistances to extreme temperatures! Elves don't need to sleep- they're better than that!

Elves have secret fighting styles no other race can have! Elves should be able to to dual class!

Yeah, some people really liked Elves, lol.

 

[Staffan]

Yeah, the direction in 2E was sort of all over the place.

On one hand, you were constantly warned that mediocrity was to be exalted and that a power-up should be rare, or one would risk a “Monte Haul campaign” <shudder>, yet there was all this optional stuff that was sprinkled around that was there for those who didn’t want play “right” and demanded such largess.

I think there was a recognition that DMs (particularly new DMs who see all the cool stuff springled around the rules) often are overly generous, and all the admonishments were put in to put brakes on that tendency rather than stop it entirely.

Eh, the first wave were notoriously underpowered in a lot of ways. Especially the poor Priests. Though later books had more nonsense.

Complete Fighter was a strong power-up. Sure, the kits weren't very special (particularly not compared to some from later books), but the expanded combat rules (with a variety of called shots for various effects), style specialization (which is what enabled dual-wielding without penalties), and additional weapons (including the best weapon in the game, the long spear) were all nice additions.

Complete Priest, on the other hand, has the distinction of to my knowledge being the only splatbook to reduce the power of the splat in question. That said, it was a pretty good world-building resource with all those priesthoods ready to go – they weren't particularly useful if you were running a pre-made setting, however (well, maybe with the exception of meta-settings like Planescape or Spelljammer).

 

[PHATsakk43]

I think there was a recognition that DMs (particularly new DMs who see all the cool stuff springled around the rules) often are overly generous, and all the admonishments were put in to put brakes on that tendency rather than stop it entirely.


Complete Fighter was a strong power-up. Sure, the kits weren't very special (particularly not compared to some from later books), but the expanded combat rules (with a variety of called shots for various effects), style specialization (which is what enabled dual-wielding without penalties), and additional weapons (including the best weapon in the game, the long spear) were all nice additions.

Complete Priest, on the other hand, has the distinction of to my knowledge being the only splatbook to reduce the power of the splat in question. That said, it was a pretty good world-building resource with all those priesthoods ready to go – they weren't particularly useful if you were running a pre-made setting, however (well, maybe with the exception of meta-settings like Planescape or Spelljammer).

I was going to reply to Mannahnin regarding the Fighter’s book, as it really made fighters shine.

Granted, only single class ones. As for some reason the split XP and armor and weapon restrictions wasn’t enough of a trade off to any benefit.

It was also weird how the main implied reason for a lot of nerfs wasn’t even that the nerfed classes were too strong, but that if they didn’t get a nerf, you wouldn’t want to play this other class which basically only doesn’t suck only because we made everything else suck worse.

Like, how about we just make the other class or race a bit better to offset instead of nerfs?

 

[James Gasik]

It's interesting that it was noted the Cleric is a very strong class (on paper, at least), but then once Legends & Lore, Demihuman Deities, and especially the Forgotten Realms Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons came out, Mythos/Specialty Priests soon left the basic Cleric in the dust.

Apparently the going theory was that the Cleric needed to be strong to get people to play the class, as their unique resource, healing (and to an extent, being the best at removing or preventing detrimental effects) was super necessary in AD&D.

But because those spells were so vital, the rest of their spell list almost didn't matter- Clerics were expected to heal first, remove debuffs second, and buffing or offensive spells were a distant third, hence the push to give Clerics not only more abilities, but even let them poach abilities normally relegated to other classes!

Some of the worst offenders went so far as to give you all the abilities of another class, and cleric powers, for example:

 

[Staffan]

It's interesting that it was noted the Cleric is a very strong class (on paper, at least), but then once Legends & Lore, Demihuman Deities, and especially the Forgotten Realms Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons came out, Mythos/Specialty Priests soon left the basic Cleric in the dust.

Part of it was, I think, that Complete Priest was the second Complete book, and they probably didn't have that good a grasp of 2e's peculiarities at that point.

For one thing, they classified the cleric's armaments as "good". Personally, I'd go with "medium". Yes, they have good armor, but only getting bludgeoning weapons is pretty weak. Good should be any weapon or armor, Medium should be either good armor or good weapons with mediocre in the other (like the cleric or rogue), and Poor should be mediocre in both (like cleric weapons and rogue armor).

For another, they treat every sphere as being equally valuable. Astral, with IIRC two spells at level 5 and 7, counts the same as Combat which is where the nice buffs are IIRC.

And third, they are drastically overvaluing having breadth of spell access. A priesthood with Good combat abilities should, IIRC, have major access to two spheres and minor access to two more. As I recall, it's kind of rare for a sphere to have more than two, maybe three, spells per level, and there are plenty of cases where levels are entirely blank for a sphere. So call it an average of 2 spells per level (which I think is overstating it), and you get a total of 8 spells per level for levels 1 to 3 (or was it 4? I think 3 was minor sphere access and 4 was Lesser Divination, but I could be getting those confused and can't be hedgehogged to check) and 4 per level for 4 to 7. That's pretty disappointing.

Plus, they are ignoring the role of the cleric in the party. Their job is to be the healer. You can go "but why should a priest of Thor be healing instead of casting lightning bolts?", and that's a fair question from a world-building perspective. But the party needs a healer, and if the priest of Thor can't do that then they can't fulfill the cleric's role.

I think 3e actually had the right idea with giving clerics a core spell list and having a small number of bespoke-ish spells on top of that based on domains. I think it might be tuned a little too much toward homogenization, but more or less having the right idea.

 

[PHATsakk43]

I think you also leave out that the spheres were not only expanded, but sphere list changed for clerics and druids.

As for weapons and armor, they are just as useful as warriors until 5th or so level as they have access to weapons that do basically the same damage. What makes a difference is after 5th or so, warriors get multiattacks and the THAC0 ramps way faster.

The other thing that no one has mentioned is that 2E has unlimited turning undead. Undead are über dangerous in RAW 2E not just for their abilities, but also because the game was designed with the assumption that morale is a core part of the game and undead typically never flee combat, unlike most other opponents.

So, the turning is a biggie. Even if morale rolls were sporadic at best at most tables I played with in the 1990s.

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I also let my clerics free cast.

The other thing that should be considered is that priests have a good chance of having multiple spells due to wisdom. Cleric spells are often lower power, but it’s easy to have a cleric with three spells at level 1.