D&D General How Often Should a PC Die in D&D 5e?

[EzekielRaiden]

That’s the point. How many definitions of “story” are there?

I'd say there are a few--but they're all going to have things in common.

For some folks, "story" has extremely hard requirements: it must be pre-plotted, it must have a definite beginning/middle/end structure, it must have rising and falling action, etc., etc. My main issue with doing this is that it makes it a lot harder to talk about things that aren't SO rigidly, perfectly pre-defined.

For other folks, "story" is extremely loosely defined, as basically anything that produces the feeling of experiencing or telling a story. I'm pretty sympathetic to this position, though I do think it can verge into turning "story" into a meaningless nothing, which should be avoided.

For me, "story" means there's a sense of reasonable flow between events. It doesn't have to be strictly "rising and falling action" patterns nor "beginning, middle, and end" cleanly laid out--serialized works often are not so cleanly divisible, for example--but it does need to have some kind of sense of "protagonism" and a reasonable degree of thematic and chronological cohesion. It doesn't need any plotting in advance, but it does need continuity and prepared ideas that get expressed through the world and its inhabitants.

I fully understand that the above has some amount of "I know it when I see it", but I think there's enough substance to at least recognize some things that definitely aren't story and some things that definitely are.

 

[Chaosmancer]

From here the players would have their characters, in-character, decide if any of these possibilities appealed, and if yes they'd take steps to folow up and get involved. If two or more missions appeal they might even split the party (and recruit more characters to fill out both groups, if needed) and try doing both (at the table this would translate into playing one group through its mission then we'd flip to the other group and play through their mission). If none of the missions appealed, they might try their luck elsewhere pr just decide to take some time off.

Just as a function of pointing out where "Realism" gets scrubbed to the side in these situations, I want to note that there is never really an expectation that these rumors are actually baseless rumors that are a waste of time to follow up on. There will be SOMETHING to do after choosing the path.

I have actually never seen or heard of anyone creating an adventure hook rumor, and it turning out to be literally nothing. No monsters to fight. No treasure to find. Just a week of wandering around camping outside with nothing to show for it. That doesn't happen.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'd say there are a few--but they're all going to have things in common.

For some folks, "story" has extremely hard requirements: it must be pre-plotted, it must have a definite beginning/middle/end structure, it must have rising and falling action, etc., etc. My main issue with doing this is that it makes it a lot harder to talk about things that aren't SO rigidly, perfectly pre-defined.

For other folks, "story" is extremely loosely defined, as basically anything that produces the feeling of experiencing or telling a story. I'm pretty sympathetic to this position, though I do think it can verge into turning "story" into a meaningless nothing, which should be avoided.

For me, "story" means there's a sense of reasonable flow between events. It doesn't have to be strictly "rising and falling action" patterns nor "beginning, middle, and end" cleanly laid out--serialized works often are not so cleanly divisible, for example--but it does need to have some kind of sense of "protagonism" and a reasonable degree of thematic and chronological cohesion. It doesn't need any plotting in advance, but it does need continuity and prepared ideas that get expressed through the world and its inhabitants.

I fully understand that the above has some amount of "I know it when I see it", but I think there's enough substance to at least recognize some things that definitely aren't story and some things that definitely are.

This is largely where I fall as well. There are some stories that are odder than others. A story that focuses on describing a a field during the hour of sunset would be perhaps on the edges of what a story is, but I think it would still be a story.

I think a start, an end, and at least one character (while accepting that a setting can be a character) are the hard limits. I don't think it would be possible to have a story that doesn't have a starting point, and any story attempting to not have an end point will eventually be forced to have one. And beyond that, you need at least one "character" to focus the words.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just as a function of pointing out where "Realism" gets scrubbed to the side in these situations, I want to note that there is never really an expectation that these rumors are actually baseless rumors that are a waste of time to follow up on. There will be SOMETHING to do after choosing the path.

I have actually never seen or heard of anyone creating an adventure hook rumor, and it turning out to be literally nothing. No monsters to fight. No treasure to find. Just a week of wandering around camping outside with nothing to show for it. That doesn't happen.

Not so. There are examples of false rumors in many, many games.

 

[Lanefan]

Just as a function of pointing out where "Realism" gets scrubbed to the side in these situations, I want to note that there is never really an expectation that these rumors are actually baseless rumors that are a waste of time to follow up on. There will be SOMETHING to do after choosing the path.

I have actually never seen or heard of anyone creating an adventure hook rumor, and it turning out to be literally nothing. No monsters to fight. No treasure to find. Just a week of wandering around camping outside with nothing to show for it. That doesn't happen.

It's uncommon, certainly, but over the years I've seen each of the following happen at least once as either player or DM:

--- someone else got there first and the adventure site/mission had been largely cleaned out/dealt with by the time the PCs arrived
--- (related to previous) the rumour the PCs heard was out of date by the time the PCs heard it; had they investigated they easily could have learned this but for whatever reason they did not do so
--- the rumour was planted to lure either a) the PCs specifically or b) adventurers in general into a trap, ambush, or other situation that most definitely wasn't part of the rumour they heard
--- the PCs never found or reached the rumoured adventure site due to either bad information or poor navigation
--- the PCs never reached the rumoured adventure site due to getting distracted by (or distracting themselves with) something else along the way
--- the PCs reached the rumoured adventure site but found it more or less empty, as in the intervening time the occupants they'd heard about had moved on
--- the rumour was complete BS and-or someone's practical joke.

 

[pemerton]

Then why was the question asked?

To try and understand how you reconcile your frequently-averred dislike of "narrative" concepts in RPGing with your use of such a seemingly obviously narrative concept as "adventure hook".

It seems to me that, in a verisimilitudinous RPG, the "spotlight characters" would already have lives with things they are doing in those lives without needing to be hooked into adventure. Whereas an adventure hook like Gandalf and Thorin knocking on Bilbo's door seems such an obvious contrivance to make a story go, that I would have thought it's the kind of thing you reject.

 

[Micah Sweet]

To try and understand how you reconcile your frequently-averred dislike of "narrative" concepts in RPGing with your use of such a seemingly obviously narrative concept as "adventure hook".

It seems to me that, in a verisimilitudinous RPG, the "spotlight characters" would already have lives with things they are doing in those lives without needing to be hooked into adventure. Whereas an adventure hook like Gandalf and Thorin knocking on Bilbo's door seems such an obvious contrivance to make a story go, that I would have thought it's the kind of thing you reject.

Because what you're describing isn't an adventure hook in my estimation. It's the beginning of a prepared adventure path, if one were to put the Lord of the Rings in gaming terms. What I'm talking about is a perfectly logical opportunity for exploration and interaction with the setting, to be presented in a way that makes sense within the setting.

I expect (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't see this difference as sufficiently...different, but I don't know what else to tell you. You and I simply simply experience and appreciate the hobby quite differently in many ways it would seem.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because what you're describing isn't an adventure hook in my estimation. It's the beginning of a prepared adventure path, if one were to put the Lord of the Rings in gaming terms. What I'm talking about is a perfectly logical opportunity for exploration and interaction with the setting, to be presented in a way that makes sense within the setting.

I expect (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't see this difference as sufficiently...different, but I don't know what else to tell you. You and I simply simply experience and appreciate the hobby quite differently in many ways it would seem.

what makes LotR not that in your opinion? they might have a destination but they still explore and interact with the setting, and wanting to destroy the very evil one ring is a motivation that makes sense in the setting.

 

[KYRON45]

Because what you're describing isn't an adventure hook in my estimation. It's the beginning of a prepared adventure path, if one were to put the Lord of the Rings in gaming terms. What I'm talking about is a perfectly logical opportunity for exploration and interaction with the setting, to be presented in a way that makes sense within the setting.

I expect (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you don't see this difference as sufficiently...different, but I don't know what else to tell you. You and I simply simply experience and appreciate the hobby quite differently in many ways it would seem.

“It's not the destination, it's the journey”...Ralph Waldo Emmerson

 

[KYRON45]

I'd say there are a few--but they're all going to have things in common.

For some folks, "story" has extremely hard requirements: it must be pre-plotted, it must have a definite beginning/middle/end structure, it must have rising and falling action, etc., etc. My main issue with doing this is that it makes it a lot harder to talk about things that aren't SO rigidly, perfectly pre-defined.

For other folks, "story" is extremely loosely defined, as basically anything that produces the feeling of experiencing or telling a story. I'm pretty sympathetic to this position, though I do think it can verge into turning "story" into a meaningless nothing, which should be avoided.

For me, "story" means there's a sense of reasonable flow between events. It doesn't have to be strictly "rising and falling action" patterns nor "beginning, middle, and end" cleanly laid out--serialized works often are not so cleanly divisible, for example--but it does need to have some kind of sense of "protagonism" and a reasonable degree of thematic and chronological cohesion. It doesn't need any plotting in advance, but it does need continuity and prepared ideas that get expressed through the world and its inhabitants.

I fully understand that the above has some amount of "I know it when I see it", but I think there's enough substance to at least recognize some things that definitely aren't story and some things that definitely are.

Everyone keeps tying themselves up in knots to include the actual definition of what a story is into what they believe defines a story.
The debate hasn't been what is a story. Story is a word that has a definition in every dictionary in every language.
The debate is....are we creating a story when we play an RPG?
Keep in mind that this debate has NOTHING to do with the OP.

Have a great day everyone.