NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[pemerton]

Fair. I am saying "button pushing" pejoratively. Can you suggest terminology for "invoking an ability listed on a character sheet instead of trying to think creatively about the problem"?

Playing a system with poorly-designed action resolution mechanics.

 

[pemerton]

Because it is super jarring if that is different than what my internal model of my character says. Besides, if the rules or the GM determine what my character thinks, feels and does, then I obviously don't need to be there.

Huh? Sometimes the rules tell you that your PC can't move (because paralysed) or can't do anything (because unconscious). Does that mean you don't have to be there?

Not to mention, that I find it incredibly jarring if I think of my PC as Conan-esque in nature, and they are felled by a lone kobold or rat. (Some versions of D&D are very prone to producing this experience.)

 

[Maxperson]

I'm building an NPC adversary for a campaign (a cleric of Asmodeus), and their key Deity skill is deception.

But then it occurred to me that rolling to see if the NPC successfully deceived the PC's takes away player agency. That is, the player should be able to decide whether their PC believes the NPC or not.

So, from that perspective, social skill abilities for NPCs are a waste of a skill "slot". (Game mechanically speaking, not from a roleplay perspective)

Any thoughts on this? How do you/would you handle it?)

According to Crawford, social skills are not for use against PCs by NPCs. If you read the social skill section of the 5e DMG, you will also see that it only speaks about use against NPCs and never against PCs.

 

[pemerton]

This sounds somewhat similar to L5R, which often features social scenes of this nature.

Fate and Cortex do something similar with Stress. While there can be Physical Stress, there can be other forms of Stress that a character can take: e.g., Social, Mental, Corruption, etc. Characters can take "hits" to their Social stress that risk taking them out of the scene.

In Stonetop and Avatar Legends, the equivalent of Persuasion entails the loser having to divulge information honestly (and reasonably) about it would take for them to be persuaded. If the other party does that, then it's on the loser to then hold up their end of the gentleman's agreement, as per the game rules. PCs can try to convince NPCs, but losing the roll can mean that the GM can potentially do a hard move that turns the move back on the PC.

Some good examples of non-terrible mechanics!

 

[pemerton]

PCs can be tricked or persuaded. Happens all the time. It just happens via the interaction being roleplayed, not because the dice told us so. And like "NPC rolled 25 on the joke roll, now laugh" just isn't the same than the GM playing the NPC as actually funny, it is not same pretending to be tricked than to actually be tricked.

I prefer it when the players are tricked, swindled, persuaded, etc. I like feeling that cold chill down my spine when I, the player, have a sudden realization that we have greatly, dangerously, perhaps disastrously, erred. I don't so much enjoy pretending to feel that way.

Your descriptions of how play works in a system with social resolution seems completely disconnected from my experiences of those systems. What systems do you have in mind?

EDIT:
Here are two examples, from Prince Valiant. How do you handle seduction at your table? Does the GM have to actually seduce the player?

Next, warning came that a military force was approaching in the distance. The drawbridge was raised and the gates closed. But Sir Morgath, looking out from the battlements, could see that in front of the soldiers were two women riding hurriedly on ponies. (In the tram on the way to the session I had decided to use the second of the Woman in Distress episodes found in the main rulebook.) There was debate - should the drawbridge be lowered? - but Sir Morgath was against it, as too risky. The women arrived at the edge of the moat across from the drawbridge and called out for help to Sir Gerran, who as Marshall of the order was in command of the gates. Lady Lorette of Lothian explained that she was fleeing from her fiance, Sir Blackpool the Count of Toulouse, to whom she had been betrothed by her father and who had treated her cruelly. Would they not lower the drawbridge?

Although Prince Valiant is not technically a pulp it is from the same period - the 30s and 40s - and there is a degree of pulp-era stereotyping in Greg Stafford's presentation of women in his scenarios. In this case, Lady Lorette has Presence 4 and Glamourie 5. So as she pleaded to Gerran I rolled her 9 dice vs Gerran's Presence of 3. I allowed Gerran's player two bonus dice (the maximum morale bonus allowed for in the system) as a resolute Marshall defending his castle, so he had 5 dice in total. And rolled better than me! And so he didn't relent.

Meanwhile Sir Morgath had lowered a rope down the wall of the castle. He called out to the Lady and she leapt into the moat and swam to him, where he took hold of her and carried her up the wall. But the handmaiden accompanying her did not have the strength or courage to jump into the moat. So Morgath slid back down the rope and swang across the moat to rescue her. (At the start of the session I had handed out some fame (the "XP" of the system) that had been earned in the previous session. This had qualified Morgath for a new skill rank, which he had spent on Agility: his player felt he was repeatedly suffering for a lack of physical ability at key moments. It now served him well, as he got 3 successes on his 4 dice.)

In the scenario as written by Stafford, the Lady has the Incite Lust special effect which she will use against the strongest and most famous male adventurer, provided he is not married. Anticipating possible complications, Morgath - when asked by the Lady who her rescuer was - announced himself as Sir Morgath, husband of Lady Elizabeth of York. But being an unfair GM while also trying to run with the fiction, it seemed only to make sense that Morgath should fall for the Lady as he carried her in his arms into the castle. The player cursed me appropriately, but also had seen it coming. He took the Lady into the keep to ensure her safety.

At some point during these various events I had told Sir Morgath's player that a messenger had returned from Britain with news that a token of Elizabeth was to come; and around now I told him that his huntsman Algol, recruited during the wedding festivities for Sir Justin had arrived accompanied by three women - Lady Elizabeth travelling somewhat incognito with two handmaidens. The messenger had told her of Sir Morgath's adventures and feats of derring-do, and she (being "Gullible about knights and noblemen" as per the NPC description in the scenario where she was introduced) had decided to come and join him in his adventures. I took the opportunity to remind Sir Morgath's player of his longing for Lorette (as the description of the Incite Lust special effect says, "This can be a cruel Special Effect to use, especially if the object of lust is unattainable" or, in this case, illicit) but he held firm. I can't now recall whether I insisted on any checks at this point, but one did come up later.

Meanwhile Lady Alia of Bordeaux, Gerran's bride, explained to him that while she had consented to wed him their marriage would be an unconsumated one. Sir Gerran (as portrayed by his player) accepted this - he saw the marriage as one of political convenience, not involving any sort of affection.

The day before the wedding there was a hunt. Sir Justin excused himself from this - he had had some bones of drowned Sigobertian soldiers recovered from the wreck of the ship that had brought the PCs to France (wrecked in the same context as the kraken-housing ship), and had commissioned a silver reliquary (gold being deemed too pricey) to house those bones as the first relics of the order, and was now going to spend the day praying over the reliquary in the newly-established shrine of St Sigobert, staffed by brothers sent from the home monastery in Britain who would now make up the Bordeaux chapter.

Sir Morgath rode with his huntsman and his wife, while Sir Gerran hunted with his trained falcon that had been a gift given to him by the Duke of York at Sir Morgath's wedding. Lady Lorette - who has Riding and Hunting skill - also joined the hunt, as did Lady Alia. I can't remember all the details of this, but Lady Alia rolled poorly while Sir Gerran rolled OK. And impressed both by his performance in the melee and his hunting prowess, Lady Lorette put the moves on him. I resolved this as his Presence vs her Presence + Glamourie, ruling that if she doubled his total the seduction was total. I can't remember now whether I offered him a bonus die for Alia being also nearby on the hunt; but I don't think Gerran's player took any bonus. Total seduction ensued, and the wedding the next day was a formal rather than exuberant affair.

(Sir Justin's player noted that he had had an inkling as to what the true "hunt" might be, hence his decision to pray instead.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Huh? Sometimes the rules tell you that your PC can't move (because paralysed) or can't do anything (because unconscious). Does that mean you don't have to be there?

I mean if my character is unconscious I literally don't need to be there. But what I as a player am in charge of, is the mental state and the volition of the character. That the character might be physically restrained does not interfere that. (Though it would in practice limit what the character can do much, thus should probably not be a prolonged state of affairs.)

I remember the old example from one of your knight games where you rolled dice to determine what the characters wanted and what they decided to do. I would walk. You can roll the dice to see what my character does next, I'll go do something where I have actual agency.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Huh? Sometimes the rules tell you that your PC can't move (because paralysed) or can't do anything (because unconscious). Does that mean you don't have to be there?

Not to mention, that I find it incredibly jarring if I think of my PC as Conan-esque in nature, and they are felled by a lone kobold or rat. (Some versions of D&D are very prone to producing this experience.)

This is why I never think of my PCs like that (at least in a narrative sense).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Your descriptions of how play works in a system with social resolution seems completely disconnected from my experiences of those systems. What systems do you have in mind?

Exalted 2e. I'm sure it is possible in many games. It would be in D&D 5e if you interpreted the social mechanics work on PCs the same way they're said to work on NPCs. (Though they thankfully don't.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm building an NPC adversary for a campaign (a cleric of Asmodeus), and their key Deity skill is deception.

But then it occurred to me that rolling to see if the NPC successfully deceived the PC's takes away player agency. That is, the player should be able to decide whether their PC believes the NPC or not.

So, from that perspective, social skill abilities for NPCs are a waste of a skill "slot". (Game mechanically speaking, not from a roleplay perspective)

Any thoughts on this? How do you/would you handle it?)

I've been through variations of this in my game.

Pitting a really good deception roll versus player insight rolls isn't taking away agency, it's just a skill challenge.

In this case, the NPC takes that stuff seriously and has a really good deception score and probably a magic item or two to back it up.

But eventually, the PCs will figure it out and circle back and curb stomp them. (A wise NPC would do as few deception rolls as possible and have the PCs out running around the world, working on bad information, rather than having multiple chances per session to spot the NPC's tells via insight.)

 

[pemerton]

This is why I never think of my PCs like that (at least in a narrative sense).

OK. Then if you're playing a system with PC-affecting social rules, why would you adopt a "mental model" of your PC that contradicts those rules? Eg if you're playing Classic Traveller, which requires PCs to make morale checks under certain conditions, why would you build a mental model of your PC as fearless?

(For you, these may be merely rhetorical questions with which you agree. But my post was addressed to @Crimson Longinus .)