[possibly controversial]What is wrong with Vampire the Masquerade 5E?

[TsuQ]

VTM allows you to acknowledge the darker aspects of humanity by playing a vampire who is struggling to hold on to the humanity that seperates them from the beast - a primal survival force within them that threatens to take over their conscious control and restraint. It's rooted in holding on to your humanity as best as you can despite no longer being human.

The most troublesome aspect of the previous editions for me would be that the political climate caused extremists to interpret the representation of certain very real, dark aspects of modern society as either support for them, or persecution of them. After all vampires are not good people, but the PCs have to try to be. In part it does this through a tenents system that allows you to define immorality for your group such that the system punishes it.

As VTM is a conduit for confronting the darker aspects of humanity, I believe that including them in the materials can only be for the best if their presence in our society is a real and pervasive aspect of it. If you wait for reality crash down on you before you acknowledge it, you'll just end up crushed - while everyone who isn't effected yet, follows your example and pretends everything is fine.

 

[MGibster]

As VTM is a conduit for confronting the darker aspects of humanity, I believe that including them in the materials can only be for the best if their presence in our society is a real and pervasive aspect of it. If you wait for reality crash down on you before you acknowledge it, you'll just end up crushed - while everyone who isn't effected yet, follows your example and pretends everything is fine.

I've only run one V5 campaign, and I stole an idea from the LA by Night campaign on YouTube run by Jason Carl from White Wolf. He usually started the session with a little vignette about what was going on in the daytime world. So I'd start my sessions by giving them a weather report followed by some brief stories of what the mortals in San Francisco were up to. Like a woman losing her husband of 42 years to cancer, a proud mother taking her son to his first day of class, or some random guy who found out he got the job he applied for, and I'd end it by saying something like, "But of course none of this mattered to you. You're dead, and far beyond such petty concerns."

About 3/4th of the way through the campaign, I started a session telling them vignettes about the mortals of San Francisco whose lives they have affected. Remember that low level thug you killed a few sessions ago? Yeah. His daughter really misses her father. Remember that woman you charmed at the nightclub so you could feed? She fell into a deep depression after your encounter and was just checked into a mental hospital after attempting to self-harm. That hapless kid you drained while frenzying? His parents are still searching for answers as to why their only child, the first one in the family to go to college, is dead. "But you don't concern yourselves with such things because you're dead. What does it matter to you if you're a blight upon this city?"

 

[aramis erak]

Fundamentally, any Vampire-as-PC is a problematic trope for a number of people...
Largely because of the linkage between feeding and sex. And the portrayal of the victims as enjoying the experience... until it kills them.
And if not killed, in many versions, the victims seek out repeated victimization.
Adding in the forcible conversion...
The genre as a whole is problematic from the get go as a rape and victim-to-rapist interpretation it often leads to.

Those elements are, at their heart, why there's much public disdain for the Vampire line over the years... even when it wasn't doing the racist, genderist, ableist rhetoric in the setting fluff.

In a small irony, my copy of WoD Gypsies was given to me by an ethnic Romany... (no, not Romanian... the persecuted ethnic group associated with the term Gypsy in Europe.)

 

[MGibster]

Fundamentally, any Vampire-as-PC is a problematic trope for a number of people...
Largely because of the linkage between feeding and sex. And the portrayal of the victims as enjoying the experience... until it kills them.

That's horror in a nutshell for you. It's quite often transgressive in some way.

In a small irony, my copy of WoD Gypsies was given to me by an ethnic Romany... (no, not Romanian... the persecuted ethnic group associated with the term Gypsy in Europe.)

A lot of the WoD books really aged like fine milk over the years. I do think the authors deserve some credit for trying to bring a little diversity to gaming even when they fell flat on their faces at the time. This kind of thing is a process where you learn as you go.

 

[aramis erak]

That's horror in a nutshell for you. It's quite often transgressive in some way.


A lot of the WoD books really aged like fine milk over the years. I do think the authors deserve some credit for trying to bring a little diversity to gaming even when they fell flat on their faces at the time. This kind of thing is a process where you learn as you go.

Milk, in the right conditions, ages quite gracefully... so much so that we have a separate word for it... Cheese.

 

[TsuQ]

Fundamentally, any Vampire-as-PC is a problematic trope for a number of people...
Largely because of the linkage between feeding and sex. And the portrayal of the victims as enjoying the experience... until it kills them.
And if not killed, in many versions, the victims seek out repeated victimization.
Adding in the forcible conversion...
The genre as a whole is problematic from the get go as a rape and victim-to-rapist interpretation it often leads to.

Those elements are, at their heart, why there's much public disdain for the Vampire line over the years... even when it wasn't doing the racist, genderist, ableist rhetoric in the setting fluff.

In a small irony, my copy of WoD Gypsies was given to me by an ethnic Romany... (no, not Romanian... the persecuted ethnic group associated with the term Gypsy in Europe.)

A complicated issue, and one which should at least partially be handled by Tenents and a good GM. I can certainly see how this would make it a difficult game to approach. I can address some of the concerns, but others are ultimately a matter of personal comfort.

It's certainly something that can be mishandled. While the stains and tenents system punishes players for acting out of line, and the political system works against embroiling mortals long-term, not giving such things focus can lead to it being overlooked. For example, from the point of view of the system, the murder of innocents is certainly the sort of thing that tends to cause stains, and thus lower humanity and eventually lead to the character's destruction.

Similarly bringing random humans into the world of vampires for any length of time generally violates the masqurade, and the prince can step in to rectify it - and typically punish the character involved. Things like herd, on the other hand should narratively be based on strength of personality and basic social interaction, being more of a setting with a certain attitude than any individual, but it could certainly be an area a GM might not give the attention it needs.

Finally, I did want to lightly touch on using equvalencies in general. While many topics run parellel to others without note, more potentially sensitive topics such as this need the GM to ensure they are treated properly. I believe, however, that presenting difficult topics like this one in an anological form, may allow the players to develop their own unique awareness of the issues; an awareness that is that much more valuable for being developed from their own understanding.

 

[Reynard]

VTM allows you to acknowledge the darker aspects of humanity by playing a vampire who is struggling to hold on to the humanity that seperates them from the beast - a primal survival force within them that threatens to take over their conscious control and restraint. It's rooted in holding on to your humanity as best as you can despite no longer being human.

The most troublesome aspect of the previous editions for me would be that the political climate caused extremists to interpret the representation of certain very real, dark aspects of modern society as either support for them, or persecution of them. After all vampires are not good people, but the PCs have to try to be. In part it does this through a tenents system that allows you to define immorality for your group such that the system punishes it.

As VTM is a conduit for confronting the darker aspects of humanity, I believe that including them in the materials can only be for the best if their presence in our society is a real and pervasive aspect of it. If you wait for reality crash down on you before you acknowledge it, you'll just end up crushed - while everyone who isn't effected yet, follows your example and pretends everything is fine.

Does it count as ironic for a Vampire thread to get necro'd?

Anyway, I wasn't really asking about V:tM in general. I was there when the game first appeared and put us poor benighted AD&D players to pretentious shame.

I was asking at V:tM 5E in particular.

 

[BigZebra]

Recently, I tried to get a grasp of what’s going on with the WoD games, but I couldn’t make heads or tails of it—at all. There are the 20th Anniversary Editions, the 5th Editions (which I believe are the most recent), and then there are also the nWoD games. When I search the internet, each of these branches seems to have its own proponents, leaving me with absolutely no idea where to start. And also - as this thread is all about - some versions of these games have questionably content.
I remember playing the original Vampire when it was released in the 90's. It was soooo into the zeitgeist that any RPG has ever been. And probably ever will. Mark Rein Hagen really hit it back then.

 

[MGibster]

Milk, in the right conditions, ages quite gracefully... so much so that we have a separate word for it... Cheese.

Sure, but at that point it's no longer milk it's cheese. i.e. It's not the same thing it once was. Whereas the various World of Darkness splat books produced in the 1990s are still splat books.

Recently, I tried to get a grasp of what’s going on with the WoD games, but I couldn’t make heads or tails of it—at all. There are the 20th Anniversary Editions, the 5th Editions (which I believe are the most recent), and then there are also the nWoD games. When I search the internet, each of these branches seems to have its own proponents, leaving me with absolutely no idea where to start. And also - as this thread is all about - some versions of these games have questionably content.
I remember playing the original Vampire when it was released in the 90's. It was soooo into the zeitgeist that any RPG has ever been. And probably ever will. Mark Rein Hagen really hit it back then.

It's confusing. While I owned both 1st and 2nd edition Vampire, I never really played them a whole lot, nor did I purchase most of the splat books. I thought it was a good game, but I just didn't hang out with the type of people who played Vampire. It wasn't until 5th edition came out, 26 years after 2nd edition, that I purchased the game again. For a person who is new, I can see how it'd be confusing. I have a similar problem with some video game titles these days.

 

[ruemere]

Recently, I tried to get a grasp of what’s going on with the WoD games, but I couldn’t make heads or tails of it—at all. There are the 20th Anniversary Editions, the 5th Editions (which I believe are the most recent), and then there are also the nWoD games. When I search the internet, each of these branches seems to have its own proponents, leaving me with absolutely no idea where to start. And also - as this thread is all about - some versions of these games have questionably content.
I remember playing the original Vampire when it was released in the 90's. It was soooo into the zeitgeist that any RPG has ever been. And probably ever will. Mark Rein Hagen really hit it back then.

When in doubt, go with Wikipedia:

Vampire: The Masquerade - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Here's the starting point for the 5th edition:

Vampire: The Masquerade Nexus - Digital TTRPG Toolset

The Official Digital Toolset for Vampire: The Masquerade on Demiplane

app.demiplane.com