NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Aldarc]

I've only been posting here for 20 years, but I suppose I could be a secret rapist.

That's a cheery way to start the New Year!

It's certainly... not encouraging.

 

[Alzrius]

I've only been posting here for 20 years, but I suppose I could be a secret rapist.

That's a cheery way to start the New Year!

I agree, the implication made against you was uncalled for, and comes across as being in violation of the "don't make it personal" rule of posting on this forum.

I'm sure the mods will step in and remind the offending poster of that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Writers of stories are almost writing always characters that do things they would never do themselves. They write characters who are deceived in ways they themselves would never be deceived. Perhaps that kind of separation (within the bounds of decency) is a productive way of thinking about it.

Yes, absolutely! I, and the people I play with, will frequently choose to have our characters be deceived, or to otherwise make "bad" decisions. That's part of the fun!

But the way we play, it's entirely up to us to decide when that happens for our own characters. When people here describe players who never voluntarily do that, I think, "Well, so what? You worry about your character, and let them worry about theirs. And if it really bothers you that much, why do you play with those people?"

 

[Umbran]

With respect, I would genuinely hope that you would know TwoSix's character better than that by now than assuming the worst of him or possibly his motives.

The worst? I say, "not encouraging" and you take that off to "assuming the worst of him"? That's quite the leap. Are you discouraged only by the literal worst things in human experience? If not, then it isn't really great to suggest that I am. When I am talking about being clear in communication on a sensitive issue, I find this this language is not helpful.

But, in any event, this is effectively a public conversation. This is not about my personal relationship and knowledge of TwoSix, or Pemerton, or you, or any other individuals.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It is simple logic. If NPC can convince PCs via social rules, then it follows they can influence the goals of the PC. There is no way around it.

If a NPC can convince the PC that doing X is a good idea, then it follows that NPC can set doing X as the goal of the PC. It is inescapable.

If I were playing a game in which it is mechanically defined how it works for a PC to influence an NPC in that way, with no judgement calls or decisions by the GM (e.g., the rules clearly define the target roll and what success means, and there is no option for the GM to rule that the goal is simply not attainable), then yeah I would agree it should work the way you describe.

 

[Aldarc]

The worst? I say, "not encouraging" and you take that off to "assuming the worst of him"? That's quite the leap. Are you discouraged only by the literal worst things in human experience? If not, then it isn't really great to suggest that I am. When I am talking about being clear in communication on a sensitive issue, I find this this language is not helpful.

Well then. Let's just say that I definitely don't find the way you choose to communicate in your responses very encouraging either and leave it at that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sophistry. Doesn't change the point. They player is not in control of the goals of their character.

It refutes the comment you actually made, maybe not the one you were trying to use it to support. That point is subjective preference.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well in that case it's system-dependent, right? RPGs are written all sorts of ways.

It is at least table dependent.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It refutes the comment you actually made, maybe not the one you were trying to use it to support. That point is subjective preference.

That the NPCs being able to use social mechanics to influence the desires and beliefs of PCs limits the player agency over the goals* of their character is a fact. Whether one considers that to be a problem, is a matter of preference.

(*Both short and long term.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

It is at least table dependent.

Yeah there's some kind of Venn diagram there.