D&D 5E What high-level spells could warp society?

[kigmatzomat]

Wasn’t Arvandor a (elf) domain on the first layer of Arborea? I remember knowing of Arvendor from Planescape, didn’t know it was also in FR (though not surprising).

Arvandor was a celestial realm created by Correlon Lorathian for elves in FR lore. Arborea is as good as any place for it. I'm not surprised it appeared in Planescape, FR was open to multiple material planes and travel to the wider multiverse, unlike Eberron or Krynn.

 

[Davinshe]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Illness-- gone. Energy-- abundant. Food and water-- abundant. Death-- gone. Building of structures-- easy. Transportation-- simple. Entertainment-- VR via illusion easily a thing.

When a single individual can pack more power than a squadron of tanks, and when such individuals are common, the potential for society to rip itself apart is pretty high. So it's entirely possible that in such a world it's just not worth congregating together in large cities. Too many people all in one place means that eventually someone's temper is going to snap and the meteor swarms start flying. It feels like to me rather than there being great towering civilizations, the world would be divided up into small squabbling warlords with roughly tribal-sized social untis being the most common. If larger groups do exist, then I'd imagine diplomacy would operate under a cold war sort of mentality; with the understanding that war is likely to result in mutually assured destruction.

 

[Reynard]

I like to turn to some of my most favorite points from the 2024 DMG.

1. Rules aren't physics.
2. The game is not an economy.
3. Combat is for enemies.
4. Rules rely on good faith interpretation.

The first three rules are to me the worst parts of 5.5. None of that is what I want.

My 2024 DMG came today so I was able to look up this "rule" since I felt like it lacked context.

here is the text:

Setting clear expectations is essential when dealing with this kind of rules exploitation. Bear these principles in mind:
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world. Don’t let players argue that a bucket brigade of ordinary people can accelerate a spear to light speed by all using the Ready action to pass the spear to the next person in line. The Ready action facilitates heroic action; it doesn’t define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round.
The Game Isn’t an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy, and players who look for loopholes that let them generate infinite wealth using combinations of spells are exploiting the rules.
Combat Is for Enemies. Some rules apply only during combat or while a character is acting in Initiative order. Don’t let players attack each other or helpless creatures to activate those rules.
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Outlining these principles can help hold players’ exploits at bay. If a player persistently tries to twist the rules of the game, have a conversation with that player outside the game and ask them to stop.

First and foremost, this was presented as a way to combat players exploiting the rules in an unfun and unfair manner. To apply them as primary, broadly applicable principles for 5E 2024 in general is, I think, wrong. I also think that if we are going to talk or argue about these principals, we should have the full text.

 

[MGibster]

First and foremost, this was presented as a way to combat players exploiting the rules in an unfun and unfair manner. To apply them as primary, broadly applicable principles for 5E 2024 in general is, I think, wrong. I also think that if we are going to talk or argue about these principals, we should have the full text.

I don't think it is wrong. The rules were designed to ensure a fun gaming experience rather than intended to be used a framework from which to build a cohesive setting. Attempts to build a cohesive setting based on the rules as written is madness. But like I said, if that's really what someone wants to do then more power to 'em.

 

[nevin]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Illness-- gone. Energy-- abundant. Food and water-- abundant. Death-- gone. Building of structures-- easy. Transportation-- simple. Entertainment-- VR via illusion easily a thing.

I'm sorry... but as soon as the first person figured out a way to 'Wish' things they wanted into existence via 9th level magic... almost every single person in all societies would have been sending their kids to magic school. 20th level Wizards would be all over the place, not just in the hands of a few people. Heck... we humans learned about medicine and curing diseases and have since then been seeing hundreds of thousands of people go to medical school to continue that. Anyone think we wouldn't see the exact same thing with magic if people could cure diseases and raise the dead?

Humans within written history and their advances in technology started maybe like 8000 years ago, and we can see where we are now. Technological advancement begats technology advancement, and thus worlds remaining stuck in medieval times when advanced magic can pretty much solve all of humanity's problems is laughable.

wishes are iffy at best so wishing things to existance isn't going to work reliably. Assuming a bell curve for whatever it is that required to be able to cast 9th level spells, int, raw talent etc. Your going to get way less than 1 percent of the population able to even cast 7th level spells even if we send everyone to school. Remember coders were going to fix the economy..LOL. I don't see billionaires trying to solve all of societies problems, so I find it unlikely that the super smart "rich kid" "powerful" mages are going to jump in and start turning into wish bots for the masses let alone waste all thier high level magic for everyone else who doesn't have it.

I do agree you'd see some magical technology but I suspect if you read the book "Operation Chaos" by Poul Anderson it would be far more like that. If you like that he did a sequel called "operation Luna" later. Operation Chaos takes place in an alternate earth where magic has always existed during thier version of WWII. Lots of cool technology and magic and still the same old problems we have. The most likely outcome. Though Wall of Iron spells would be a straight ticket to a quick payday.

 

[Chaltab]

I like thinking about broad strokes implications of certain spells existing in D&D but if you take it too literally you wind up with problems, or with extrapolations that only make sense with one particular rule set. Just as an example, the 'Pelor: the Burning Hate' fan theory. It only makes sense if:

1. There's such a thing as an 'Evil' Spell.
2. Good Clerics can't cast Evil Spells
3. Evil Clerics cannot be the followers of Good Gods.

And none of those three things are true in 4E or 5E.

Or for a more old school example, in 1E interpreted literally you end up with one of the rules of the world being that spending treasure makes you stronger.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So, I'm contemplating a setting idea where 20th level isn't the elite pinnacle of gods and legends. Rather, 20th level just means that someone has arrived into the "real influence" tier of society, ....

So, I'm wondering, if a fair number of people have consistent access to 9th level magic, what sort of implications would that have for how "adventurer society" acts?

You have to decide if the rulers are tier-5 adventurer class or tier-3+ administrators. Are these Vecna-type conquerors or are they adventurers who don't want to be stuck with the pain of rulership?

Both are feasible in different regions. The Greek-esque land can have bloodline kings with Tier 5 heroes (Heracles, Odysseus, etc) while Amazonian-esque might have a battle-queen with champion-generals. I would lean towards "heroes more than rulers" for the land of the PCs just because rulership involves a kind of diplomacy and show of strength that makes an adventuring party difficult.

This would make the PCs be "Heroes of the Realm", like the junior-most members of the Round Table. They have estates/manors and titles sufficient to provide authority but aren't really expected to deal with administrivia.

The PCs likely start learning the "scary" secrets. "The Warrior-King of Skarsgaard is not a poorly disguised Reptilian like everyone thinks but is the most-humanoid form the Demon Lord Belial can assume." "There is no volcano on Karnak Island, that is where the Abyssal Dragon Malagorn is sleeping....we think."

They likely are taught the fine art of "secret identity" and "body doubles". Simulacra are likely less for chores and more to make it hard to tell if a Hero is out adventuring or in the Court.

 

[bedir than]

If there are many Level 20 druids, clerics and paladins people wouldn't starve, they wouldn't die.
Between Spare the Dying, Healing Word, Goodberry, etc etc the world shifts with first level spells

 

[Micah Sweet]

My 2024 DMG came today so I was able to look up this "rule" since I felt like it lacked context.

here is the text:

Setting clear expectations is essential when dealing with this kind of rules exploitation. Bear these principles in mind:
Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world. Don’t let players argue that a bucket brigade of ordinary people can accelerate a spear to light speed by all using the Ready action to pass the spear to the next person in line. The Ready action facilitates heroic action; it doesn’t define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round.
The Game Isn’t an Economy. The rules of the game aren’t intended to model a realistic economy, and players who look for loopholes that let them generate infinite wealth using combinations of spells are exploiting the rules.
Combat Is for Enemies. Some rules apply only during combat or while a character is acting in Initiative order. Don’t let players attack each other or helpless creatures to activate those rules.
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Outlining these principles can help hold players’ exploits at bay. If a player persistently tries to twist the rules of the game, have a conversation with that player outside the game and ask them to stop.

First and foremost, this was presented as a way to combat players exploiting the rules in an unfun and unfair manner. To apply them as primary, broadly applicable principles for 5E 2024 in general is, I think, wrong. I also think that if we are going to talk or argue about these principals, we should have the full text.

Fair enough. It does beg the question, "if combat rules don't define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round, what does?"

 

[Micah Sweet]

I like thinking about broad strokes implications of certain spells existing in D&D but if you take it too literally you wind up with problems, or with extrapolations that only make sense with one particular rule set. Just as an example, the 'Pelor: the Burning Hate' fan theory. It only makes sense if:

1. There's such a thing as an 'Evil' Spell.
2. Good Clerics can't cast Evil Spells
3. Evil Clerics cannot be the followers of Good Gods.

And none of those three things are true in 4E or 5E.

Or for a more old school example, in 1E interpreted literally you end up with one of the rules of the world being that spending treasure makes you stronger.

Treasure that you found and brought back to civilization.