D&D 5E What high-level spells could warp society?

[TwoSix]

this thread made me think, we've been discussing if everyone had adventuring class levels, do people think 5e lacks for not having NPC classes? stuff like craftsman, farmers, aristocrats, scholars or merchants. does a 20th level scholar have their own little list of spells? casting legend lore and scrying, or are there even more spells about that simply aren't on the official list, because they're far too niche or having barrier to entry for adventurers to learn (if it's only possible for a 15th level druid to cast animal shapes why would it be so out there that a 15th level scholar could learn 'Briergurn's Library of Memory' or something.

I'll be honest, that's how my games pretty much always work, so I didn't think to mention it in the OP.

Most non-adventurers will be statted up with some kind of magical ability and resilience commiserate with their level, but they probably won't be members of a specific class.

Probably. I'm still weighing some options for how I want to approach it.

 

[Reynard]

Fair enough. It does beg the question, "if combat rules don't define the physical limitations of what can happen in a 6-second combat round, what does?"

You are taking a specific statement about the Ready Action and trying to create a conundrum by applying it more broadly. Again, these "expectations" are specifically about combating players trying exploit the rules (often "the rules as physics"). They aren't mean to be the 4 defining points of 5E 2024.

 

[Maxperson]

First off... throw the pseudo-medieval crap right out the window. Heck... with the tens of thousands of years that Faerun has been in existence and has had access to 9th level / 10th level magic... the fact that they are still pseudo-medieval is completely stupid. Technology through magic should have taken all societies into modern if not far future levels by now.

Illness-- gone. Energy-- abundant. Food and water-- abundant. Death-- gone. Building of structures-- easy. Transportation-- simple. Entertainment-- VR via illusion easily a thing.

I'm sorry... but as soon as the first person figured out a way to 'Wish' things they wanted into existence via 9th level magic... almost every single person in all societies would have been sending their kids to magic school. 20th level Wizards would be all over the place, not just in the hands of a few people. Heck... we humans learned about medicine and curing diseases and have since then been seeing hundreds of thousands of people go to medical school to continue that. Anyone think we wouldn't see the exact same thing with magic if people could cure diseases and raise the dead?

Humans within written history and their advances in technology started maybe like 8000 years ago, and we can see where we are now. Technological advancement begats technology advancement, and thus worlds remaining stuck in medieval times when advanced magic can pretty much solve all of humanity's problems is laughable.

This assumes several things.

1) That the gods aren't holding society back.
2) That everyone has the potential for powerful magic, or even magic at all.
3) That bad guys wouldn't be countering the good guys when it comes to feeding everyone.
4) That powerful monsters with their magic aren't working to prevent the humanoids from achieving that society, because it would likely spell the end to their own.
5) That there isn't some sort of universal law(s) preventing some advancement levels.
6) That powerful magic wars don't periodically reset the magical "technology" levels.

And more.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This assumes several things.

1) That the gods aren't holding society back.
2) That everyone has the potential for powerful magic, or even magic at all.
3) That bad guys wouldn't be countering the good guys when it comes to feeding everyone.
4) That powerful monsters with their magic aren't working to prevent the humanoids from achieving that society, because it would likely spell the end to their own.
5) That there isn't some sort of universal law(s) preventing some advancement levels.
6) That powerful magic wars don't periodically reset the magical "technology" levels.

And more.

The rules of WotC 5e don't make any of the dealbreaker assumptions you are making in this post. Nor would I, even if I were using a different fantasy gaming system.

 

[TwoSix]

The rules of WotC 5e don't make any of the dealbreaker assumptions you are making in this post. Nor would I, even if I were using a different fantasy gaming system.

I think the important point is that there are rational setting factors that could cause any amount of setting development from “medieval+” to “unrecognizable magitech utopia”.

So it’s really up the to the DM to decide what they want the setting to look like, and then apply the rationalizations that get it there.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This assumes several things.

1) That the gods aren't holding society back.
2) That everyone has the potential for powerful magic, or even magic at all.
3) That bad guys wouldn't be countering the good guys when it comes to feeding everyone.
4) That powerful monsters with their magic aren't working to prevent the humanoids from achieving that society, because it would likely spell the end to their own.
5) That there isn't some sort of universal law(s) preventing some advancement levels.
6) That powerful magic wars don't periodically reset the magical "technology" levels.

And more.

As most pseudo-medieval campaign settings that have been designed and written for all the different versions of D&D include none of these things-- thereby giving us absolutely no explanation as to why these settings with the capability of 9th level magic have never been able to advance past their pseudo-medieval / renaissance roots-- I am still unwilling to think it to be anything other than silly that they haven't. It's purely for the 'knights and princesses' fantasy mythic storytelling, not for any logical technological or sociological advancement.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Simulacrums would probably be the most transformative form of magic for every day life since it'd free people do whatever, and create a whole another society of fake people who lived the lives their masters don't want to.

Just starting to go through this thread, but noticed this point. Kiln People, by David Brin goes into this from a technological angle. His vision of how society changes is quite interesting.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules of WotC 5e don't make any of the dealbreaker assumptions you are making in this post. Nor would I, even if I were using a different fantasy gaming system.

I didn't say they did. You have to assume none of those(or any others) exist, though, to make the assumption I quoted.

 

[Maxperson]

As most pseudo-medieval campaign settings that have been designed and written for all the different versions of D&D include none of these things-- thereby giving us absolutely no explanation as to why these settings with the capability of 9th level magic have never been able to advance past their pseudo-medieval / renaissance roots-- I am still unwilling to think it to be anything other than silly that they haven't. It's purely for the 'knights and princesses' fantasy mythic storytelling, not for any logical technological or sociological advancement.

Right. They give no explanation one way or the other, which is why you have to assume none of those are present in order to have the advanced society you speak about.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I didn't say they did. You have to assume none of those(or any others) exist, though, to make the assumption I quoted.

Of course. I'm just pointing out that the books do not in fact assume any of those exist.