NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Crimson Longinus]

Or, you know, don't assume evryone else works like you, let folks find the tools and rules that help them do what they want, and don't look down on what they do if it isn't your thing.

I did not mean to imply that everyone needs to be things like I do, but @pemerton seemed to express incredulity to the idea that it can be done at all.

 

[CreamCloud0]

“Would I know <x>?”

Having to GM-vet information spanning from the innocuous to the exceptional before you fully orient to a situation or declare an action also seems a hair…habitation-opposed. Especially when a character is presumably not an alien to either their own accumulated knowledge or their lived-in setting!

Feels kinda “I can’t play a human being”-ey! But maybe that’s just me. Maybe you all actually do that sort of 3rd party vetting in your lived lives and I’m the anomaly!

your character isn't an alien to the setting, but the player behind that character functionally is and it behooves them to ask those kinds of questions of the GM before they declare their character's actions so they know what's what around the setting and don't do things an alien would.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would guess that the problem is the word "immersive" is so broad as to be confusing.

When I play World of Warcraft (which I have started doing again because my son is old enough to play) sometimes when I jump my character off a really high cliff, I actually feel it in my stomach. I would argue this is because of immersion.

Alternately, if a GM were to tell me, "Wait, your character wouldn't know to burn trolls...you can't do that!" my sense of immersion...of the kind that I enjoy in RPGs...would come to a screeching halt.

But I don't think either of those types of immersion are even remotely the kind of immersion you are talking about.

So I don't think it's useful to use a term that can be defined so many different ways.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a gaming term that can't be defined in several different ways. There is no community standard.

 

[KYRON45]

Unfortunately, I can't think of a gaming term that can't be defined in several different ways. There is no community standard.

Especially not when the most common response on the board is "that depends on how you define that..."
Most things have definitions that we all know. Since everyone seems to want to be the most right, they just keep redefining things so their reality is the most correct version of the truth.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Especially not when the most common response on the board is "that depends on how you define that..."
Most things have definitions that we all know. Since everyone seems to want to be the most right, they just keep redefining things so their reality is the most correct version of the truth.

And there's no standard because there's no strong motivation to make one, because ultimately the stakes here are pretty darn low.

 

[Bill Zebub]

All true, but "Immersion" feels especially broad to me. And not just with different meanings, but diametrically opposed ones! Especially when used to describe "immersion breaking".

"It breaks my immersion to have to pretend I don't know about trolls and fire."

"It breaks my immersion to have my level 1 character know about trolls and fire." (Or: "It breaks my immersion when other players do that.")

 

[Crimson Longinus]

All true, but "Immersion" feels especially broad to me. And not just with different meanings, but diametrically opposed ones! Especially when used to describe "immersion breaking".

"It breaks my immersion to have to pretend I don't know about trolls and fire."

"It breaks my immersion to have my level 1 character know about trolls and fire." (Or: "It breaks my immersion when other players do that.")

That doesn't necessarily mean people mean different things with immersion. What breaks one's immersion is subjective, so it can be different things for different people.

 

[Bill Zebub]

That doesn't necessarily mean people mean different things with immersion. What breaks one's immersion is subjective, so it can be different things for different people.

Ooh, I vote we derail this thread even further to argue about whether that means the definition is different or not!

 

[KYRON45]

All true, but "Immersion" feels especially broad to me. And not just with different meanings, but diametrically opposed ones! Especially when used to describe "immersion breaking".

"It breaks my immersion to have to pretend I don't know about trolls and fire."

"It breaks my immersion to have my level 1 character know about trolls and fire." (Or: "It breaks my immersion when other players do that.")

It’s just a pretentious buzzword.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Ooh, I vote we derail this thread even further to argue about whether that means the definition is different or not!

It has been over hundred pages so might as well! Think about people saying that this or that helps them to relax. Those are different things. Some might find the sound of rain and thunder soothing, some annoying. Doesn't meant they mean different things with being relaxed though.