The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[rhythmsoundmotion]

D&D 4E - Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

I made sure to attend Ben Riggs' seminar about the rise and fall of D&D 4E while I was at Gen Con. While it's been nearly a week since then (the seminar having happened Thursday afternoon), my memory isn't quite so bad that I can't recall the bulk of the salient points discussed there. Now...

www.enworld.org

This seems relevant. Spoilers extremely rough estimates of 3rd edition sales compared to extremely rough estimates of 4th edition sales. Cause it not like these are trade secrets or anything.

 

[mamba]

So, now where's that data about 4e being the worst selling?

I am glad that me not changing my position at all is considered progress

As I wrote earlier, he has sales figures but did not show the actual numbers. Much like your ‘4e outsold PF’ does not include any actual numbers. He did however say that every edition sold less than the previous one from 1e to 4e, and that the 4e PHB sold considerably less than 3e. The reference for the latter is repeated below

At that point, Riggs noted that the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs

 

[Chemo]

I am glad that me not changing my position at all is considered progress

As I wrote earlier, he has sales figures but did not show the actual numbers. Much like your ‘4e outsold PF’ does not include any actual numbers. He did however say that every edition sold less than the previous one from 1e to 4e, and that the 4e PHB sold considerably less than 3e. The reference for the latter is repeated below

I didn't say you changed your position, just that you admitted to your second lie, which you did, though inadvertently I'm sure

What you're quoting is about as reliable as this.

"4E was released in June of 2008, with stronger presales and opening sales than 3E, according to both anecdotal gaming store data and Wizards of the Coast (EN World has several articles on this). Sales held strong throughout the edition’s lifetime."

So, basically you have no data that shows that 4e was the worst selling, as I've been saying from the beginning. Now continue rationalizing your lies in any way you like, until you provide actual evidence I'll just keep pointing out your BS every time, lest unaware people fall for it.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

I didn't say you changed your position, just that you admitted to your second lie, which you did, though inadvertently I'm sure

What you're quoting is about as reliable as this.

So, basically you have no data that shows that 4e was the worst selling, as I've been saying from the beginning. Now continue rationalizing your lies in any way you like, until you provide actual evidence I'll just keep pointing out your BS every time, lest unaware people fall for it.

And you can have those sales numbers from Hasbro yourself for the cheap price of one billion dollars (the numbers are a Hasbro trade secret.)

 

[mamba]

I didn't say you changed your position, just that you admitted to your second lie, which you did, though inadvertently I'm sure

given that I did not admit to a first lie either, I am sure it must have been inadvertently… If you want to continue this then stop claiming that I lied, something that is patently untrue, and focus on making a better case than you have so far. I doubt you can, which is why you resort to being obnoxious instead

 

[Chemo]

And you can have those sales numbers from Hasbro yourself for the cheap price of one billion dollars (the numbers are a Hasbro trade secret.)

So what you're saying is that nobody outside the company has actual numbers and thus any claims about one edition selling a gazillion copies and another being the worstest ever are bogus? Well, sounds an awful lot like what I'm saying, no?

 

[Reynard]

The argument over 4E's relative popularity or profitability seems pointless so many years later. It's more useful to debate the merits of its design with relation to modern D&D.

For example, I was kind of excited by the possibility of the return of the bloodied condition and associated effects with 2024, but it seems they have pulled back on that. Too bad. A5E uses it to good effect with some monsters.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

So what you're saying is that nobody outside the company has actual numbers and thus any claims about one edition selling a gazillion copies and another being the worstest ever are bogus? Well, sounds an awful lot like what I'm saying, no?

Anecdotal evidence is not bogus. But the numbers to support the claims are not accessible.

 

[Chemo]

given that I did not admit to a first lie either, I am sure it must have been inadvertently… If you want to continue this then stop claiming that I lied, something that is patently untrue, and focus on making a better case than you have so far. I doubt you can, which is why you resort to being obnoxious instead

You admitting your first lie or not doesn't matter, I already proved that you lied by directly quoting you, buddy. The guy who has been unable to provide evidence for his assertion calls me obnoxious, now that is funny

 

[Chemo]

Anecdotal evidence is not bogus. But the numbers to support the claims are not accessible.

Both sides have anecdotal evidence though, so? Just for the record, you're aware that the guy who started demanding hard data while not providing any himself was mamba right?