The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[mamba]

Right... which are not in the 4e GSL.

which is why the GSL does not help you in the first place

 

[Chemo]

I see the lie that it sold well is still being propagated, charming…

Would be nice if you could show some actual numbers to show that it is indeed a lie. All I have seen is some vague tweets by guys who probably do not even have the actual data or talk about initial sales rather than lifetime sales and people conflating the two.

The only one I am aware of with sales data (incomplete for 3e) is Ben Riggs, and he said it sold worse than 3e, without giving actual numbers

A user already provided a source which you ignored.

You have provided jack.

Try again.

 

[mamba]

A user already provided a source which you ignored.

You have provided jack.

Try again.

that source provided even less than I did, so I see no need to try again

It in no way refuted any of what I wrote and shows no data either

 

[Chemo]

that source provided even less than I did, so I see no need to try again

It in no way refuted any of what I wrote and shows no data either

Of course it refutes what you said. You have provided 0 evidence to your "4e was the worst selling d&d edition ever" assertion so it is, as I said, a lie.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This one always struck me as odd too. Like, it's basically just a cleaned up 1E it's more like 1E than BECMI is and that was always part of the group. I did hear alot of derision about the whole Jim Ward led sanitization of the game though, so maybe that was a bigger part?

I love 2e, and always considered it part of the team.

 

[mamba]

Of course it refutes what you said. You have provided 0 evidence to your "4e was the worst selling d&d edition ever" assertion so it is, as I said, a lie.

an assertion does not a lie make, and saying it did not lose money is not refuting that it is the worst selling edition…

As to worst selling that came from Ben Riggs, not going to hunt this down, the first hit I found is

At that point, Riggs noted that the 4E PHB sold far less than the 3E PHBs

take it or leave it, but as I said no data was presented from ‘your side’ and what was said does not refute anything I wrote.

It can be profitable and the worst selling edition. It can sell better than Pathfinder and be the worst selling edition of D&D, and by what little data we actually have that is precisely what it was.

It also explains why it was dropped so fast and planned lines like Dragonlance were abandoned before there ever was a single product for them. The actions of WotC speak for themselves, esp in the absence of hard data, and they certainly are much better explained by a flop than a success

 

[Chemo]

an assertion does not a lie make, and saying it did not lose money is not refuting that it is the worst selling edition…

As to worst selling that came from Ben Riggs, not going to hunt this down, the first hit I found is


take it or leave it, but as I said no data was presented from ‘your side’ and what was said does not refute anything I wrote.

It can be profitable and the worst selling edition. It can sell better than Pathfinder and be the worst selling edition of D&D, and by what little data we actually have that is precisely what it was.

It also explains why it was dropped so fast and planned lines like Dragonlance were abandoned before there ever was a single product for them. The actions of WotC speak for themselves, esp in the absence of hard data, and they certainly are much better explained by a flop than a success

There is nothing to refute because you haven't proved anything in the first place, do you even know how the burden of proof works?

Of course data was presented lol (more than you provided at any rate), you are just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument. You have provided zero evidence that it was the worst selling editon and yet continue to repeat the same lie, it's pretty curious.

 

[Joshua Randall]

It is vitally important that 4e be the "worst selling" edition, because...

...

... hang on, it'll come to me...

Aha! Got it!

Because as the worst selling edition, 4e deserved to die. Ruthless capitalism is the only thing that matters. HasbrWotC was right to kill off this abomination of a game. How dare it not make enough money for its corporate overlords!

Now that is settled. I would like to complain about the BLATANT and OBVIOUS price gouging that is going on with 5e.2024. How dare they charge me for a paper book AND for a DDB subscription AND try to nickle and dime me with other things? It's like they are trying to make money instead of curating the game out of love. I would never respect any company that makes such cold hearted business decisions.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's a neat list. Have another like for it!

That said, I just realized another thing that sets 4e apart from other editions: there are very few class-based passive abilities, and pretty much none you get at higher levels. A 3e rogue would have things like Evasion, Slippery Mind, Uncanny Dodge, and so on. Any similar ability in 4e would probably be a Utility power, and thus (a) a Power you need to actively use and (b) limited in how much you can use it. This definitely adds to the "It's all a list of powers" complaint.

I kinda feel that is a design space 4E overlooked for classes, adding some passive benefits or talents. That said, there are someutility powers that almost fill that role - some at-wills work pretty similar, and some of these things are feats, but being feats and pwoers, they remain optionals, not class-innate abilities.

In my own 4E inspired Star Wars an 4E inspired Arcana Evolved I deliberately included some more or less passive talents. (For the Star Wars one, they were all non-combat ones, though. You got powers from a shared power list between all classes that had riders for your role, and class talents that were about your non-combat abilities.)

 

[Joshua Randall]

4e absolutely has passive abilities. They are mostly buried within feats. (And most of them would work better as triggered powers, zing!)