Thanks very much.
Out of curiosity, do you have an opinion on the design goal of creating "Dragonbane style" boss monsters?
Reynard's Repository 2025
- Thread starter Reynard
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Out of curiosity, do you have an opinion on the design goal of creating "Dragonbane style" boss monsters?
dave2008
Legend
I am not familiar with Dragonsbane boss monsters, so I don't know exactly what you are trying to emulate. However, your version of the Haunting Revenant seems very 5e to me. I don't see a lot of things that make it stand out from a typical Legendary Monster. You have traded legendary actions for two turns of actions (that is just a preference thing IMO). Halving damage, is already common in a lot of 5e monsters. IDK, it still feels very 5e to me, for better or worse I guess. I am not sure what you are trying to solve with the Dragonbane Style, so it is hard to give my thoughts.
Maybe I need to go read the OP which I haven't done yet.
I am currently looking at moving my monsters to a unified action economy, so that all actions work a bit like legendary actions. Something like:
ACTIONS
The dragon can take 3 actions, choosing from the options below, on its turn or as a reaction, but not more than 3 total actions in a round. The dragon regains spent actions at the start of its turn.
So every monster would get to move and spend 3 actions. However, if you spend all three on your turn, you have nothing left to use for reactions. Also, you can spend an action to move half your speed.
So a boss monster under this format could simply get more actions or, what I think is my preference:
DRACONIC ACTIONS
On its initiative count +10 (could be a static number like Lair Actions), the dragon can take one (or more) action (or have specific actions it can take).
dave2008
Legend
Ok, I looked at your description of dragonsbane boss monsters. My first thought is why not eliminate to hit rolls and have the PCs always roll a saving throw? Then you can have:
To complete the monster give it the number of turns or actions it needs and then you're there I would think.
- Fail: full damage and effects
- Pass: half damage and no or reduced effects
- Spend a reaction: same as pass (maybe)
- Pass + spend a reaction: no damage or effects.
To complete the monster give it the number of turns or actions it needs and then you're there I would think.
After some thought, I decided to run the following game for Rising Phoenix Game Convention this April:
When the Dome of Heaven shattered, gods and fiends rained down on the world. Diminished but not destroyed, they became immortal kings in their temple palaces and bloodthirsty monsters in their dark lairs -- all to the detriment of mortals. As God Hunters, it is up to you to find them and cast them back into the Beyond. High Level Fantasy Action using the 2024 D&D 5E rules! Note: Each session is a different adventure. Play them all!
I am going to sharpen up my new monster rules and aim for 15th or 17th level for the PCs.
When the Dome of Heaven shattered, gods and fiends rained down on the world. Diminished but not destroyed, they became immortal kings in their temple palaces and bloodthirsty monsters in their dark lairs -- all to the detriment of mortals. As God Hunters, it is up to you to find them and cast them back into the Beyond. High Level Fantasy Action using the 2024 D&D 5E rules! Note: Each session is a different adventure. Play them all!
I am going to sharpen up my new monster rules and aim for 15th or 17th level for the PCs.
I am running a series of high level (17th) D&D 2024 games in April, focused on hunting down malevolent gods that came to the Prime when the Dome of Heaven broke. here is the list of the targets for the PCs in the 4 game sessions:
Hateweaver
Formerly [NAME], Lord of Tireless Enmity, Hateweaver was cast out of the Heavens as a massive spider form. Hateweaver has no designs on rulership, but feeds on the worst impulses of mortals. Hateweaver creates a lair within a few miles of a city and causes bitterness, xenophobia and selfishness to foment until the people of that place descend into an orgy of violence and hate.
Defeating Hateweaver will not dispel the hatred in mortals' own hearts, but it will allow people to confront their biases in a sane manner.
Hateweaver can manipulate the emotions of its opponents. Like all fallen gods, Hateweaver is a powerful combatant with many magical attacks and defenses, but its most powerful attacks are aimed at the minds and hearts of its enemies.
The Warforge
Once a god of fire and forge, specifically related to the forging of weapons of war, upon the Fall this deity was trapped in the form of a massive, walking furnace. Evil dwarves, among others, flocked to the being in order to use the living, walking forge as a tool to create weapons of great power and malice.
But the Warforge is driven by an insatiable hunger for fuel, and that fuel is only the wood of the purest forests of the Elf Lands. It is a walking juggernaut of fire and doom that cannot be stopped by anything but the greatest power.
The Warforge is a powerful physical opponents that is never without hordes of zealot minions. It commands a fire to rival the breath of the most ancient dragons and is itself forged of impenetrable adamantium.
The Ruin That Walks
Once a god of secrets, security, locks and traps, The Ruin That Walks became something far more twisted and worse when the Dome of Heaven shattered. Unable to work itself into a “mortal” avatar form, the Ruin That Walks became a place. Specifically, it became a dungeon tomb full of traps and treasures. The Ruin that Walks is the grandfather of all Mimics, a living dungeon full of malice, spite and hatred for any that would delve its depths.
The Ruin That Walks can become anything it desires, but its intellect is not comprehensible by mortals. So what it becomes is a dangerous dungeon that changes constantly to vex and murder those who enter. But it has a heart, and to kill the heart kills the Ruin That Walks.
Lilith, Queen of Monsters
When the Dome of Heaven broke, Lilith could have sat upon her throne in her Celestial Palace like the other Great Gods of the universe. Only the lesser gods were dragged to the mortal realm, of course, and Lilith was Second Among All, Queen Mother of All That Hissed and Growled. But for eons Lilith had desired to punish the mortal realm for failing to worship her as she saw fit. Mortals’ fear of her drove her mad with rage and envy of other gods, and when she had the chance, she descended to the world and took on a form of terror and blight so that she might punish all mortal things for their transgression.
While Lilith chose a lesser form than her Celestial one, she is still immensely powerful and dangerous. She has taken the form of an immense chimera of all the worst horrors that haunt the world and kill heroes.
To defeat Lilith is to kill a true god and to free the world from her unending depredations and her malevolent spawn.
Hateweaver
Formerly [NAME], Lord of Tireless Enmity, Hateweaver was cast out of the Heavens as a massive spider form. Hateweaver has no designs on rulership, but feeds on the worst impulses of mortals. Hateweaver creates a lair within a few miles of a city and causes bitterness, xenophobia and selfishness to foment until the people of that place descend into an orgy of violence and hate.
Defeating Hateweaver will not dispel the hatred in mortals' own hearts, but it will allow people to confront their biases in a sane manner.
Hateweaver can manipulate the emotions of its opponents. Like all fallen gods, Hateweaver is a powerful combatant with many magical attacks and defenses, but its most powerful attacks are aimed at the minds and hearts of its enemies.
The Warforge
Once a god of fire and forge, specifically related to the forging of weapons of war, upon the Fall this deity was trapped in the form of a massive, walking furnace. Evil dwarves, among others, flocked to the being in order to use the living, walking forge as a tool to create weapons of great power and malice.
But the Warforge is driven by an insatiable hunger for fuel, and that fuel is only the wood of the purest forests of the Elf Lands. It is a walking juggernaut of fire and doom that cannot be stopped by anything but the greatest power.
The Warforge is a powerful physical opponents that is never without hordes of zealot minions. It commands a fire to rival the breath of the most ancient dragons and is itself forged of impenetrable adamantium.
The Ruin That Walks
Once a god of secrets, security, locks and traps, The Ruin That Walks became something far more twisted and worse when the Dome of Heaven shattered. Unable to work itself into a “mortal” avatar form, the Ruin That Walks became a place. Specifically, it became a dungeon tomb full of traps and treasures. The Ruin that Walks is the grandfather of all Mimics, a living dungeon full of malice, spite and hatred for any that would delve its depths.
The Ruin That Walks can become anything it desires, but its intellect is not comprehensible by mortals. So what it becomes is a dangerous dungeon that changes constantly to vex and murder those who enter. But it has a heart, and to kill the heart kills the Ruin That Walks.
Lilith, Queen of Monsters
When the Dome of Heaven broke, Lilith could have sat upon her throne in her Celestial Palace like the other Great Gods of the universe. Only the lesser gods were dragged to the mortal realm, of course, and Lilith was Second Among All, Queen Mother of All That Hissed and Growled. But for eons Lilith had desired to punish the mortal realm for failing to worship her as she saw fit. Mortals’ fear of her drove her mad with rage and envy of other gods, and when she had the chance, she descended to the world and took on a form of terror and blight so that she might punish all mortal things for their transgression.
While Lilith chose a lesser form than her Celestial one, she is still immensely powerful and dangerous. She has taken the form of an immense chimera of all the worst horrors that haunt the world and kill heroes.
To defeat Lilith is to kill a true god and to free the world from her unending depredations and her malevolent spawn.
Over this most recent weekend, I ran a series of high level D&D 5E 2024 battles at a convention. After some less than satisfying playtesting with the standard rules, I developed a different system. Following is a rough draft of that system (which i worked out to good success before and between sessions at the con).
A thread discussing the process can be found here.
----------
God Hunting: Rules for Fighting Epic Monsters in D&D 5E
Post Playtest Draft
Note: These rules were developed following dissatisfaction with high level PCs versus epic/legendary monsters in D&D. After two lackluster playests against the 2024 Colossus, I decided to create the basics of these rules before my “God Hunters” games at RPGCon (Medford, MA, April 24-27). I iterated the rules with each of the four sessions. This document is an attempt to formalize those rules and is, of course, itself subject to future iteration.
Second Note: In this document I am using “Gods” to denote the level of monster, and “God Hunting” to describe the battles. This is simply due to the conceit of the convention game that spawned these rules. These terms will eventually be replaced by something else.
The Design Goal: Epic Fun
The purpose of these “God Hunting” rules is to ensure that campaign ending epic battles by high level PCs are as satisfying in actuality as they promise to be in the lead up. While D&D, particularly 5E, has implemented a few tools to accomplish this (Legendary actions, Mythic rules, etc) it continues to miss the mark. Too often, such a battle is over before the PCs can really show what they can do, or, conversely, it turns into an interminable slog.
The Core Concept: Hits and Thresholds.
In this system, bigger monsters just don’t have more hit points. Instead, these gods have Hits, which are marked off if during a single round a certain damage Threshold is reached by the PCs. Most gods have 3 Hits, and are destroyed when the last is marked off. Minions: Gods always have Minions with them. Minions serve them as soldiers and support in the fight against the PCs. But most importantly they serve as a means to resist or heal from damage done by the PCs, potentially causing the PCs to fail to mark a Hit that round.
Gods: Designing Epic Monsters
Relative to the usual 5E rules, gods are exceptionally powerful high CR creatures, with legendary resistances, legendary actions, and other abilities appropriate to their status.
Note: This document uses monster creation rules from LevelUp: Advanced 5E (EN Publishing), as well as some influence from both the Tome of the Valiant Monster Vault (Kobold Press) and the monster book Flee!Mortals (MCDM).
The GM may start with an existing epic tier enemy, such as the Collossus, and modify it, or build a creature from scratch (using a reliable set of rules, such as the LevelUp: Advanced 5E rules found in the Monstrous Menagerie). Armor class, defenses, offensive abilities and other elements are intended to remain in line with the gods’ 5E CR.
Set Challenge Rating: Gods should be at least CR 18 with legendary abilities. It is recommended that the CR of the god be set at the highest CR appropriate to the party level and number of members for a dead encounter, as shown on the LevelUp:A5E encounter design chart. For example, the god facing a 17th level, 5-member party should be CR 25.
Assign Hits: Most gods will have 3 Hits, and each Hit will have the same Threshold. Of course, any individual creature can deviate from this if the GM desires and the story of the monster suggests such. Some of the examples in this document certainly do.
Assign Threshold: The Threshold value is the amount of damage that the PCs need to do collectively to the god in one round (one full cycle through the initiative order) in order to mark off a Hit. Use a base value of 5 times the creature's CR.
Minions and Threshold: Since minions either heal damage done to the god, or block incoming damage, they impact the proper setting of the god’s Threshold value. See the minions’ “Signature Support Abilities” section for a list of different minion support abilities and how they modify the god’s base Threshold.
Minions: Necessary Evils
The gods do not stand alone. When the PCs encounter a god, there are always minions with the god, providing additional firepower, defensive capabilities and support.
Choosing Minions: The number, type and CR of minions should be chosen to ensure that the total CR for the encounter is rated as deadly for the PCs according to the LevelUp A5E encounter chart. For example, a group of 5 level 17 PCs requires a CR 25 god and a number of minions that bring the total CR of the encounter to 56. It is recommended that the individual CR of the minions not be below half the average character level (rounded down). So in the given example, no minion should be below CR 8.
Signature Support Abilities: A god can use a Reaction to activate a minion’s signature support ability. The purpose of this support ability is to disrupt, avoid or heal damage that would otherwise fill the god’s Threshold during a round. Note that the ability has no impact on the minion’s CR, since it is a passive ability that is activated by the god. Examples of signature support abilities are:
Block Damage: Using a reaction, the god can force a minion within 30 feet to take damage that has just been dealt to the god, which he minion suffers normally with regards to its own hit points, resistances, immunities and vulnerabilities. This ability is common to fanatical minions of their gods. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by 20% the base value.
Absorb Life Force: Using a reaction, the god may absorb the life force of a minion at any distance as long as it is on the same plane. The god heals an amount of damage to its Threshold equal to the minion’s current hit points. This ability is common to the minions of gods who create minions from parts of themselves. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by the minion’s CR%.
Reset Threshold: Using a reaction, the god may sacrifice a minion and immediately reset the current Threshold to zero damage. This is a powerful, uncommon ability found only in powerful gods and those whose minions have limited or no offensive capability. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by 10%.
Creating and Deploying Minions: Normally, when a god is encountered it has a small number of minions present. As each is defeated by the PCs or sacrificed by the god, the god may replace a minion by using a legendary action. Another minion of the same type appears within 30 feet of the god and acts immediately and continues to take its turn immediately after the PC whose action preceded the legendary action that spawned the minion. In any case, the god may never have any more minions with it than it had when the encounter began.
Lairs: Hell is Where The Heart Is
Gods have lairs that have lair features and use lair actions in accordance with their base creature. Note that in D&D 5E 2024, legendary creatures do not have lair actions and instead gain an additional legendary action while in their lairs. It is up to the GM to decide if this is appropriate for the god in question.
Rewards: Loot and XP
The intent of these rules is to present major battles that are at the culmination of central storylines or at least long developing subplots in the campaign. GMs should reward players as they see fit, but following are a few suggestions:
Artifact(s): Gods are perfect enemies to guard ancient, powerful artifacts. Making a major artifact the reward for defeating a god is entirely appropriate.
Epic Boons: Likewise, defeating a god could confer upon the PCs a touch of the divine. Consider gifting the PCs with an epic boon feat.
A Taste of the Divine: As a specific sort of Epic Boon, consider giving the PCs a choice. Upon defeating the god, it shrinks into a gem,. Stone, icon or even egg, a small earthly vessel containing its power. That vessel may be hidden away or returned to the heavens or otherwise removed from the PCs reach. OR, the PCs may crack it open and absorb its essence, drinking of divine power in order to gain their Epic Boon. Is this taboo? How would the world and the other gods or powers react?
The End: It is, of course, possible that rewards are moot, as the defeat of the god signals the end of the campaign.
A thread discussing the process can be found here.
----------
God Hunting: Rules for Fighting Epic Monsters in D&D 5E
Post Playtest Draft
Note: These rules were developed following dissatisfaction with high level PCs versus epic/legendary monsters in D&D. After two lackluster playests against the 2024 Colossus, I decided to create the basics of these rules before my “God Hunters” games at RPGCon (Medford, MA, April 24-27). I iterated the rules with each of the four sessions. This document is an attempt to formalize those rules and is, of course, itself subject to future iteration.
Second Note: In this document I am using “Gods” to denote the level of monster, and “God Hunting” to describe the battles. This is simply due to the conceit of the convention game that spawned these rules. These terms will eventually be replaced by something else.
The Design Goal: Epic Fun
The purpose of these “God Hunting” rules is to ensure that campaign ending epic battles by high level PCs are as satisfying in actuality as they promise to be in the lead up. While D&D, particularly 5E, has implemented a few tools to accomplish this (Legendary actions, Mythic rules, etc) it continues to miss the mark. Too often, such a battle is over before the PCs can really show what they can do, or, conversely, it turns into an interminable slog.
The Core Concept: Hits and Thresholds.
In this system, bigger monsters just don’t have more hit points. Instead, these gods have Hits, which are marked off if during a single round a certain damage Threshold is reached by the PCs. Most gods have 3 Hits, and are destroyed when the last is marked off. Minions: Gods always have Minions with them. Minions serve them as soldiers and support in the fight against the PCs. But most importantly they serve as a means to resist or heal from damage done by the PCs, potentially causing the PCs to fail to mark a Hit that round.
Gods: Designing Epic Monsters
Relative to the usual 5E rules, gods are exceptionally powerful high CR creatures, with legendary resistances, legendary actions, and other abilities appropriate to their status.
Note: This document uses monster creation rules from LevelUp: Advanced 5E (EN Publishing), as well as some influence from both the Tome of the Valiant Monster Vault (Kobold Press) and the monster book Flee!Mortals (MCDM).
The GM may start with an existing epic tier enemy, such as the Collossus, and modify it, or build a creature from scratch (using a reliable set of rules, such as the LevelUp: Advanced 5E rules found in the Monstrous Menagerie). Armor class, defenses, offensive abilities and other elements are intended to remain in line with the gods’ 5E CR.
Set Challenge Rating: Gods should be at least CR 18 with legendary abilities. It is recommended that the CR of the god be set at the highest CR appropriate to the party level and number of members for a dead encounter, as shown on the LevelUp:A5E encounter design chart. For example, the god facing a 17th level, 5-member party should be CR 25.
Assign Hits: Most gods will have 3 Hits, and each Hit will have the same Threshold. Of course, any individual creature can deviate from this if the GM desires and the story of the monster suggests such. Some of the examples in this document certainly do.
Assign Threshold: The Threshold value is the amount of damage that the PCs need to do collectively to the god in one round (one full cycle through the initiative order) in order to mark off a Hit. Use a base value of 5 times the creature's CR.
Minions and Threshold: Since minions either heal damage done to the god, or block incoming damage, they impact the proper setting of the god’s Threshold value. See the minions’ “Signature Support Abilities” section for a list of different minion support abilities and how they modify the god’s base Threshold.
Minions: Necessary Evils
The gods do not stand alone. When the PCs encounter a god, there are always minions with the god, providing additional firepower, defensive capabilities and support.
Choosing Minions: The number, type and CR of minions should be chosen to ensure that the total CR for the encounter is rated as deadly for the PCs according to the LevelUp A5E encounter chart. For example, a group of 5 level 17 PCs requires a CR 25 god and a number of minions that bring the total CR of the encounter to 56. It is recommended that the individual CR of the minions not be below half the average character level (rounded down). So in the given example, no minion should be below CR 8.
Signature Support Abilities: A god can use a Reaction to activate a minion’s signature support ability. The purpose of this support ability is to disrupt, avoid or heal damage that would otherwise fill the god’s Threshold during a round. Note that the ability has no impact on the minion’s CR, since it is a passive ability that is activated by the god. Examples of signature support abilities are:
Block Damage: Using a reaction, the god can force a minion within 30 feet to take damage that has just been dealt to the god, which he minion suffers normally with regards to its own hit points, resistances, immunities and vulnerabilities. This ability is common to fanatical minions of their gods. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by 20% the base value.
Absorb Life Force: Using a reaction, the god may absorb the life force of a minion at any distance as long as it is on the same plane. The god heals an amount of damage to its Threshold equal to the minion’s current hit points. This ability is common to the minions of gods who create minions from parts of themselves. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by the minion’s CR%.
Reset Threshold: Using a reaction, the god may sacrifice a minion and immediately reset the current Threshold to zero damage. This is a powerful, uncommon ability found only in powerful gods and those whose minions have limited or no offensive capability. When you choose this ability for the god’s minions, their Threshold increases by 10%.
Creating and Deploying Minions: Normally, when a god is encountered it has a small number of minions present. As each is defeated by the PCs or sacrificed by the god, the god may replace a minion by using a legendary action. Another minion of the same type appears within 30 feet of the god and acts immediately and continues to take its turn immediately after the PC whose action preceded the legendary action that spawned the minion. In any case, the god may never have any more minions with it than it had when the encounter began.
Lairs: Hell is Where The Heart Is
Gods have lairs that have lair features and use lair actions in accordance with their base creature. Note that in D&D 5E 2024, legendary creatures do not have lair actions and instead gain an additional legendary action while in their lairs. It is up to the GM to decide if this is appropriate for the god in question.
Rewards: Loot and XP
The intent of these rules is to present major battles that are at the culmination of central storylines or at least long developing subplots in the campaign. GMs should reward players as they see fit, but following are a few suggestions:
Artifact(s): Gods are perfect enemies to guard ancient, powerful artifacts. Making a major artifact the reward for defeating a god is entirely appropriate.
Epic Boons: Likewise, defeating a god could confer upon the PCs a touch of the divine. Consider gifting the PCs with an epic boon feat.
A Taste of the Divine: As a specific sort of Epic Boon, consider giving the PCs a choice. Upon defeating the god, it shrinks into a gem,. Stone, icon or even egg, a small earthly vessel containing its power. That vessel may be hidden away or returned to the heavens or otherwise removed from the PCs reach. OR, the PCs may crack it open and absorb its essence, drinking of divine power in order to gain their Epic Boon. Is this taboo? How would the world and the other gods or powers react?
The End: It is, of course, possible that rewards are moot, as the defeat of the god signals the end of the campaign.
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