The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[Joshua Randall]

I am happy! I do love stick shift and weird licorice that I just learned about today!

Sadly people won't let me enjoy 4e in peace. That's the rub. If everyone just rolled their eyes at "there go the weird 4e lovers -- well, whatever; they are in their corner with their weird licorice, no skin off my nose" -- that'd be fine. But EVERY time I admit my love for 4e and weird licorice, people have to over to my corner to tell me how much 4e sucked.

 

[Belen]

But seriously: whether intentionally or not, 4e is very specific about the kind of gameplay it wants to support. And that gameplay is definitely not meant to appeal to everyone -- for the first time in D&D's history.

This is the primary reason I hated 4e. It took the d20 gameplay style elements I disliked and amped them through the roof.

It decided that a specific style of play was valid and ignored the rest. It was one of the first “we want a different audience that we think will be larger” attempts.

It was, in fact, smaller.

Honestly, though, I wish they’d branded it D&D Tactics and supported it as a derivative product.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I am happy! I do love stick shift and weird licorice that I just learned about today!

Sadly people won't let me enjoy 4e in peace. That's the rub. If everyone just rolled their eyes at "there go the weird 4e lovers -- well, whatever; they are in their corner with their weird licorice, no skin off my nose" -- that'd be fine. But EVERY time I admit my love for 4e and weird licorice, people have to over to my corner to tell me how much 4e sucked.

Well, that's not fun.

As I wrote before, I try not to get too involved in these conversations. I wasn't around for the ... discourse of the time, but I know that it wasn't pleasant. AFAIC, 4e isn't the D&D for me, but I respect that there are a lot of people that love it, and I admire the design choices and chances it took- arguably, 4e will continue to have a lasting design influence not just on 4e, but moving forward. And that's pretty cool!

As an aside, I do think that there is something about the specificity of 4e. I have long said that specific rules have great advantages; on the other hand, less specific rules ("play how you want") lack a lot of those advantages, but may be better for mixed groups with different interests. But what do I know?

 

[Belen]

I am happy! I do love stick shift and weird licorice that I just learned about today!

Sadly people won't let me enjoy 4e in peace. That's the rub. If everyone just rolled their eyes at "there go the weird 4e lovers -- well, whatever; they are in their corner with their weird licorice, no skin off my nose" -- that'd be fine. But EVERY time I admit my love for 4e and weird licorice, people have to over to my corner to tell me how much 4e sucked.

It was a very divisive product and the 4e fans were often brutal about telling folks to stop complaining and leave D&D back in the day.

I stopped using ENWorld, in part, because of all the toxicity around it. I also had kids and it became less important.

I get the anger but I do not think folks will change because of how toxic that period was.

I wonder if Morrus would just create a sub forum for 4e fans.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It was a very divisive product and the 4e fans were often brutal about telling folks to stop complaining and leave D&D back in the day.

In fairness, I am assuming that the toxicity went both ways. People always tend to view "the other side" as being toxic, and their own side as being reasonable.

No matter what the issue is.

I wonder if Morrus would just create a sub forum for 4e fans.

I wouldn't recommend singling out any edition; just trying to be nice to each other regardless of gaming preferences.

Except bards. I've met pro- and anti-4e people that I can respect, but I never met a bard that didn't need killin'.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We are able to waste our time posting on a message board while living our comfortable existence because of the societal gains made by a variety of businesses, including small businesses and sole-proprietorships, maximizing profits.

Disagree hard. Making money and a good product people need or want? Yes. Maximizing profit to support the demands of shareholders? Unnecessary. I'll die on this hill.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think historical context plays a role here, as well. Making something open-source seemed like the smart, cool thing to do in 2000, the year of peak techno-optimism and pre-dotcom crash. Trying to repeal that and make some more money in the significantly more grim economic setting of 2008 makes a bit more sense in that context.

That doesn't make it a good move, certainly not a necessary one.

 

[Tigris]

This is the primary reason I hated 4e. It took the d20 gameplay style elements I disliked and amped them through the roof.

It decided that a specific style of play was valid and ignored the rest. It was one of the first “we want a different audience that we think will be larger” attempts.

It was, in fact, smaller.

Honestly, though, I wish they’d branded it D&D Tactics and supported it as a derivative product.

if it was branded D&D tactics it would never reached the same sales numbers. This is just not feasible to have more than 1 edition at the time and non main line products just never sell as much as mainline products. Even the final fantasy MMOs are numbered like main line final fantasy games for this reason.

It was a very divisive product and the 4e fans were often brutal about telling folks to stop complaining and leave D&D back in the day.

I stopped using ENWorld, in part, because of all the toxicity around it. I also had kids and it became less important.

I get the anger but I do not think folks will change because of how toxic that period was.

Why would you, if you dont like the new product and thus dont play it, complain about it? Just play something else. You saw it was not made for you so the logical step is to accept this and play something else. It is not like people came to your house and burn your old D&D books.

And its not that you would like a version of the game made for you even with some slight changes (thats why Essentials did not work).

 

[Micah Sweet]

In fairness, I am assuming that the toxicity went both ways. People always tend to view "the other side" as being toxic, and their own side as being reasonable.

No matter what the issue is.


I wouldn't recommend singling out any edition; just trying to be nice to each other regardless of gaming preferences.

Except bards. I've met pro- and anti-4e people that I can respect, but I never met a bard that didn't need killin'.

I think there's benefit in singling out every edition on the forums.

 

[TwoSix]

That doesn't make it a good move, certainly not a necessary one.

I know, but it adds nuance to an idea that sometimes can be reduced to “good guys and bad guys”.