D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

[Ruin Explorer]

Folks. Even leaked early 4e playtests complained about the computer game thing. Maybe it’s time to at least except that people have legitimate opinions about what they think the game was like?

There are legit opinions, and there are ignorant and revisionist opinions, and sorry, I'm going continue to sort out the two.

A legit opinion might be "this is too much like a tactics RPG" or "I don't like these discrete little powers" or "I don't want to use minis".

An ignorant and historical revisionist opinion is "4E was literally inspired by WoW in terms of mechanical design, not monetization".

There's a difference, and if you can't see it, well, that's not my fault.

 

[SlyFlourish]

I guess I am the odd 4e player / DM that liked both the original and essentials lines. In my game we had 4 OG 4e characters and 2 essentials characters and it was no issue. We appreciated the different options.

You're not alone. I loved the Essentials point. Combat was fast. Encounters were better balanced. Monsters were great.

 

[Dire Bare]

Whilst I think your point is generally well-made, I wish people would stop repeating this canard.

Canard? You know you are replying to somebody who was there, on the design team at the time, right?

Management wanted something MMO players would be comfortable playing and that would translate well to a possible future MMO. WoW was (is?) the top game in that category. Doesn't mean the mechanics of D&D 4E were designed to mimic or copy WoW, just to move D&D closer to that style of game. I think a lot of folks conflate the two.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Currently I use Foundry as my VTT and the biggest complaint I saw while researching it prior to using it was it can be very resource intensive and doesn't really support being played on a tablet. Neither is an issue for the group I play with since all of us also play PC games and have PCs with good specs, but I agree that this could end up being a pretty big hurdle for the wider audience for the 3d VTT to overcome. A mobile app to be able to use an iPad would help a lot, but I guess we'll see how it goes.

Foundry is still browser based.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I feel they did and I am driving on it safely!

Massachusetts ass driving imho. I jest but

 

[Chaltab]

Foundry is still browser based.

Not only that but if you're just a client and not hosting, it Browser Foundry will run on a potato of a PC.

 

[dave2008]

... or "I don't want to use minis".

And of course you could play 4e without minis or a battle map too.

 

[Dire Bare]

There's a difference, and if you can't see it, well, that's not my fault.

While I agree, there is a difference . . . there is so much unnecessary hostility in this thread, and the other 4E threads that have popped up recently.

 

[dave2008]

You're not alone. I loved the Essentials point. Combat was fast. Encounters were better balanced. Monsters were great.

Monsters, particularly solos, definitely got better with essentials.

PS - didn't you design a kick-ass black dragon for 4e. Was that during essentials or before?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Doesn't mean the mechanics of D&D 4E were designed to mimic or copy WoW, just to move D&D closer to that style of game. I think a lot of folks conflate the two.

I agree, and that's the canard - that 4E was designed to mimic or copy WoW, specifically.

Management wanted something MMO players would be comfortable playing and that would translate well to a possible future MMO.

AFAIK that's completely false. What's your source for "a possible future MMO"? There was a very clear statement for WotC and that wasn't the goal - getting people subscribe to the DDI and a 3D VTT was the goal. WotC wanted subscription income, like MMORPGs, and specifically like WoW.

But the idea that 4E was designed to "translate well to an MMORPG" is absolutely false AFAIK. Unless you can find an actual statement to that effect, it's pure fiction. And what's funny is, there was 4E MMORPG! And notably 4E's mechanics translated extremely poorly to an MMORPG! 3E's mechanics actually worked better in the 3E MMO (though still not very well).

TLDR: You're confusing what management wanted - people to pay subscriptions to WotC for the DDI and a 3D VTT with planning for an entirely fiction MMORPG.

What's ironic too is that's exactly what WotC are doing again now, and nobody is blinking about.