The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[Thomas Shey]

Even on Foundry, PF2e is only used by about a third of all accounts. That was, in fact, the link I gave earlier. Any hope Paizo might have had of truly replacing D&D as the top dog has conclusively died. My assertion--backed by that evidence--is that the game carrying the torch of 3e-ness is the one that keeps the market share.

This assumes PF2e is trying to replace D&D. That's an idiot's game. The fact they briefly--and what evidence I can find is it was brief--managed to do so with PF1e was an accident of time.

What it does show is its at least possible to be a non-WOTC player who has a significant, if not D&D level player base. Past that, people outside the D&D-sphere haven't been expecting to be in genuine competition with the publishers of D&D for the last half-century, why would they now?

I realize that can make finding other games sometimes heavy lifting. I'm not sold its any harder now than it ever was, other than perhaps there are even more other games in play so that dilutes the non-D&D playing portion further, but that's inevitable.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeap, pretty much the first thing you learn in any PF2 online community is to use Foundry as VTT. Which runs on a lot of local machines that report no data so there isnt a good way to measure the amount of games if one wanted to.

It doesn't count the people who don't insist on heavy automation, either (I'm not doing so now, but if I ran PF2e I'd use Maptool and just set up a few macros for the necessary die rolls; people were capable of bookkeeping their spells and hit points long before VTTs came along) and thus may be using some of the simpler self-hosted VTTs, or aren't using a VTT.

I mean, I get you only have the data you have when looking at these things, but when the data is as intrinsically as distorted as what's being used here, leaning into it hard is a categorical error.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

This assumes PF2e is trying to replace D&D. That's an idiot's game. The fact they briefly--and what evidence I can find is it was brief--managed to do so with PF1e was an accident of time.

What it does show is its at least possible to be a non-WOTC player who has a significant, if not D&D level player base. Past that, people outside the D&D-sphere haven't been expecting to be in genuine competition with the publishers of D&D for the last half-century, why would they now?

I realize that can make finding other games sometimes heavy lifting. I'm not sold its any harder now than it ever was, other than perhaps there are even more other games in play so that dilutes the non-D&D playing portion further, but that's inevitable.

The really crazy thing is that you can be a significant non-WOTC player... while releasing a game that competes directly with them blow for blow, it's not even like, a different genre. That probably has to do with the fact that nothing is as sticky with TTRPG players as fantasy adventuring, but still.

 

[Tigris]

No MMO has every really been a "WOW killer", no FPS game has truly been a "Call of Duty killer", it's pretty safe to say that no ttrpg is ever going to be a "DND killer".

Find what you want to play, and play it. It really doesn't have to be a competition of which is "the best/biggest"

Well GTA 5 sold more than Call of Duty. List of best-selling video games - Wikipedia




And Final Fantasy 14 nowadays has most likely similar player numbers as WoW if not more.

Final Fantasy 14 Is Apparently the World’s Most Played MMORPG

Several grains of salt are recommended for this one.

in.ign.com

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think WOTC's best defense against Pathfinder at the moment really is just inertia and the fact that 5e is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space.

You have made my point for me.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

You have made my point for me.

I will use this bestowed authority entrusted to me to suggest you didn't have one, best PR manager ever I know.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I will use this bestowed authority entrusted to me to suggest you didn't have one, best PR manager ever I know.

"Inertia and the fact that [D&D] is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space" is the very thing I was talking about. Those things cause D&D to be the 900-lb gorilla. ANYTHING that gets the D&D label slapped on it instantly gets vastly more attention than anything that doesn't. Gamma World is a great example of what happens when the makers of D&D create a side game that doesn't have the D&D label. It disappears.

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Inertia and the fact that [D&D] is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space" is the very thing I was talking about. Those things cause D&D to be the 900-lb gorilla. ANYTHING that gets the D&D label slapped on it instantly gets vastly more attention than anything that doesn't. Gamma World is a great example of what happens when the makers of D&D create a side game that doesn't have the D&D label. It disappears.

Well, unless we've all decided to just always follow the path of the owner of D&D's IP, you have to accept that you're living on the fringes of the industry if you care about anything other than what WotC's pushing right now. Neither of us are satisfied with their current offering I think.

 

[Dire Bare]

"Inertia and the fact that [D&D] is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space" is the very thing I was talking about. Those things cause D&D to be the 900-lb gorilla. ANYTHING that gets the D&D label slapped on it instantly gets vastly more attention than anything that doesn't. Gamma World is a great example of what happens when the makers of D&D create a side game that doesn't have the D&D label. It disappears.

I've always wondered . . . if WotC took another swing with Gamma World, but developed it as a genre expansion for D&D 5E . . . could it find more success and longevity? Similar with other TSR/WotC RPGs of days long past; Star Frontiers as D&D Space, Boot Hill as D&D Wild West, Urban Arcana as D&D Modern . . .

 

[Echohawk]

if WotC took another swing with Gamma World, but developed it as a genre expansion for D&D 5E

That was almost the approach they took with the last version of Gamma World. It has the D&D logo slapped on to it and was basically the 4e engine, with slight tweaks.