The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

Roll20 is the last place to look for a PF2 game because frankly Roll20 sucks. Folks use Foundry for it.

Paizo folks are saying that PF2 is selling better than PF1 and I don’t have reason to not believe them. They split their base and are doing better that’s how many more folks are playing now.
Even on Foundry, PF2e is only used by about a third of all accounts. That was, in fact, the link I gave earlier. Any hope Paizo might have had of truly replacing D&D as the top dog has conclusively died. My assertion--backed by that evidence--is that the game carrying the torch of 3e-ness is the one that keeps the market share.
 

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And I am 100% convinced it would have died in obscurity, with 95% or more of D&D players never even looking at it, let alone playing it. Putting it in that position would guaranteed kill it off dead, even before you consider that being "D&D the Adventure Game" would have meant it got zip-zero-zilch-nada additional support after publication.
"100%" tells me that you're just not willing to take that chance. You lack faith that anyone else could possibly want something different, or that you won't have anyone to play things your way. 4e already proved that there is some section of the population that not only accepted the radical changes and challenges of a newly designed D&D, but a good amount of that population still has fond memories and continue to enjoy it to this day. Not only that, but more people are rediscovering it again and putting a more positive light on their retrospect.
I mean, as it stands, at least half the people who criticized it never played or even read it either, given the pernicious and dead-wrong "criticisms" that were the stock and trade of the edition war (and thus still linger with us today).
Maybe you need to stop focusing on those discussions, and the people who decided they won't be changing their minds anytime soon. Surely you aren't going to miss those people at your table.
Also? I'm certain you did not mean it, but...well, there's really no other way to read your distinction there as anything other than "4e isn't for roleplaying." Which is both untrue and deeply, deeply frustrating, because that, too, is a longstanding insult without any basis, other than efforts to exclude 4e from being "true" D&D.
I might have been insulted if I wasn't genuinely concerned that this was coming from you. If you think that was ever my position, then I have to believe that you have been fighting this war for far too long. I'm starting to think you are trapped in your own private war, doomed to see enemies and offenses everywhere. Stand down, soldier.

I'll just say this.

The biggest problem with D&D is this idea that it is THE RPG for everyone. But the term "RPG" itself has been so many different things to different people, especially those who market their products with only enough traits to capitalize by adding "RPG" on the label. It is storytelling. It is make-believe. It is fantasy. It is simulation. It is strategic combat. It is wargaming. It is miniatures. It is theater of the mind. It is turn based. It is freeform. It is sandbox. It is open world. It is railroad. It is narrative. It is procedural. It is dice. It is cards. It is both. It is a game. It is a way of life. And so on. More importantly, and specifically to D&D, it tries to be everything (and more) to everyone. And there is the biggest problem.

Very few people want ALL of that in their game. Most want only a few of those things in varying degrees, but not everyone wants the same things. We can't just agree that we all like RPGs without a declarative statement to qualify the kinds of RPGs we prefer, or even the styles we like to play. Yet, the company must somehow cater to all, or risk losing customers to other (possibly more suitable) games.

Getting past all that, we accept whatever version suits us for the kind of game we want to play. We just need to find players who will also accept that kind of game, otherwise we will never enjoy our games because it is meant to be played with other people. Now we discover that different people have very different ideas and tastes! But shouldn't the game tell us how it is supposed to be played? No, but it sure would help a lot if it told everyone else that MY WAY was preferred. Or, better yet, that it was the RIGHT WAY! (You see where this is going?)

When I suggest that 4e could have been a different kind of D&D game, I also meant it could also be a different kind of RPG. But there can only be ONE D&D RPG at a time, at least according to... I don't know what to call it, actually. Popular opinion? Common sense? Corporate mandate? It's not important.

What if 4e had been "a D&D roleplaying game" rather than "THE D&D roleplaying game"? Obviously, it would not have been the 4th Edition, but I think a lot of people would not mind so much if it meant having an alternate version of a game they liked alongside whatever constitutes the traditional game that is suited to other people.

Just imagine that for a second. 5e comes out as 4e, while 4e is released as a different kind of D&D. What is it, exactly? I don't know. But nobody ever finds out by not doing anything. We are stuck with whatever someone else decides to put in front of us as we continue revisiting the same discussions, and the same arguments, with the same people.

But you go on fighting the good fight! Maybe someday you'll get the kind of game with the kind of people you've always wanted. But you'll probably have to let your guard down just a little. Or find people who don't live on online forums, or haven't played anything before 5th edition. Whatever you do, good luck!
 
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No. It needs to have people actually playing it, so I can get to play it, instead of just talking about it or thinking about it, as is the case with 99% of other games I've read. And is the case with PF2e, which never reached even 10% of the market share PF1e did. Because it wasn't able to tell people, "You can play exactly what you've always been playing." 5e (pretty much) did tell them that. Because 5e is 3e with refinements. The designers even explicitly said this during development, reducing 4e to a mere concept of "streamlining".

PF2e is what happens when a game that changes things lacks the cachet, the importance, the thematics, that are part of what D&D is and has been. It practically disappears from public perception. It gets totally drowned out by other games; D&D takes the lion's share, even though PF1e had had that lion's share before (because, as I have previously argued, it was an extension of 3e through and through), even though Golarion is popular and Paizo has produced numerous popular, well-loved adventure paths (several of which have been adapted into successful video games!)
Paizo and other interested parties have mentioned before that the only period where PF1e was outselling 4e, was the period where 4e stoppered new publications. PF2e is noticeably more successful than PF1e in absolute terms, and Sayre here was writing two years before the OGL crisis happened.

It also still gets surges of new players whenever WOTC released a book or ran a playtest during the lead-up to 5.5 (I'm not sure if it still does, there's still plenty of new players converting over from 5e, but I'm not sure about the big numbers) so the game is apparently percolating in the headspace of at least fairly invested 5e gamer types online-- I think WOTC's best defense against Pathfinder at the moment really is just inertia and the fact that 5e is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space.
 

Actually, these days it's mostly Call of Cthulhu in 2nd place. Even both PFs combined don't add up to more than 4% of Roll20's playerbase, for example--and have never been more than like 10% since 5e landed on the scene. PF2e has never been a meaningful threat to 5e and almost surely never will. Paizo's star has fallen, and it probably won't ever recover, because they could only catch the "you wanna keep playing what you love? we can do that!" lightning in a bottle once.
Is Roll20 the place to look for meaningful data re: PF2e. though? It seems, from what I can tell, most PF2E players use Foundry (which is awesome for the game).

Edit: Ninja'd by @payn
 

Is Roll20 the place to look for meaningful data re: PF2e. though? It seems, from what I can tell, most PF2E players use Foundry (which is awesome for the game).
Yeah Roll20 had dropped support for PF2e and was never really that great for it in the first place, so everyone switched to Foundry, it was a whole thing, IDK if Roll20 improved on it sense then.
 

Is Roll20 the place to look for meaningful data re: PF2e. though? It seems, from what I can tell, most PF2E players use Foundry (which is awesome for the game).

Edit: Ninja'd by @payn
Yeap, pretty much the first thing you learn in any PF2 online community is to use Foundry as VTT. Which runs on a lot of local machines that report no data so there isnt a good way to measure the amount of games if one wanted to.
 

I think WOTC's best defense against Pathfinder at the moment really is just inertia and the fact that 5e is also the game of choice for people who (otherwise) aren't aware of the TTRPG space.

This is absolutely true, and is also why I believe some push so hard to have 4e seen as 'D&D'. Its literally all about the hearts and minds of players.

When the OGL stuff was going on, Pathfinder material flew off the shelves in every game shop in my vicinity. An hour's drive in any direction.

There are things to like with PF2, things to like in PF1, and likely 4e as well, but the biggest fight I believe is one for acceptance that its (4e) also D&D, and the pushback against the idea is due to it being too different or 'felt' to be too different, from the 3e branch.

Its all very repetitive however, and one can instead get their 'D&D' from any number of other games, including 4e, if they want or are blessed with the opportunity to have a group open to it.

Or, just play Shadowdark.
 


No MMO has every really been a "WOW killer", no FPS game has truly been a "Call of Duty killer", it's pretty safe to say that no ttrpg is ever going to be a "DND killer".

Find what you want to play, and play it. It really doesn't have to be a competition of which is "the best/biggest"
 

Actually, these days it's mostly Call of Cthulhu in 2nd place. Even both PFs combined don't add up to more than 4% of Roll20's playerbase, for example--and have never been more than like 10% since 5e landed on the scene. PF2e has never been a meaningful threat to 5e and almost surely never will. Paizo's star has fallen, and it probably won't ever recover, because they could only catch the "you wanna keep playing what you love? we can do that!" lightning in a bottle once.

I do have to point out a non-trivial part of that is because online players of PF2e have, in large, moved over to Foundry because it has better support for the system.
 

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