D&D (2024) Is anyone at WOTC paying attention to what they print any more?

[Paul Farquhar]

That bullet point is overcome by specific beats general in this case, not in every case of paralysis or with every spell. It specifically allows a dex save WHILE PARALYZED, unlike any other spell. Your statement is not correct about the bullet point being useless.

Max is absolutely correct here. The specific rule that a dex save ends the effect overrules the general rule that you automatically fail dex saves. WotC make lots of errors, but this aint one.

It would make more sense if subsequent saves were con saves though.

 

[ECMO3]

That bullet point is overcome by specific beats general in this case, not in every case of paralysis or with every spell. It specifically allows a dex save WHILE PARALYZED, unlike any other spell. Your statement is not correct about the bullet point being useless.

The Paralyzed condition does not stop you from making dex saves, it just makes you automatically fail them. The fact the stat block says they get a save does not mean there has to be a chance of success.

It allows a dex save while paralyzed (as do all things that allow a save) but you automatically fail that save. To me this is pretty clear RAW.

There is no specific verses general argument here. For there to be a specific versus general it would have to say you can succeed at this specific save even while paralyzed and it doesn't say that.

This is no different than someone with an 8 dexterity and no proficiency making a Dex save against the 22DC breath weapon of a Ancient Black Dragon. They get the Dex save, but they can not possibly make it regardless of the roll on the dice. They automatically fail. Same here while Paralyzed.

 

[TiQuinn]

The Paralyzed condition does not stop you from making dex saves, it just makes you automatically fail them. The fact the stat block says they get a save does not mean there has to be a chance of success.

Do you really think that’s the way to run it at the table?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The Paralyzed condition does not stop you from making dex saves, it just makes you automatically fail them. The fact the stat block says they get a save does not mean there has to be a chance of success.

If it was intended to be automatically failed there would be no point in including the text in the stat block. Ergo it must be possible to make the save, ergo this is a specific rule that overrides the general rule.

 

[ECMO3]

Do you really think that’s the way to run it at the table?

I think that is the way to run it RAW and I don't really see a mechanical problem running it that way (although I still think the wording is foolish, unintended and speaks to sloppy editing and game design).

To answer your question, I am in 5 different weekly games right now:

One of them I am a player in the DM already homebrewed to make the successive saves Constitution saves (keeping the first a Dex save).

I think on the table I am DM on I am going to go RAW (until/unless it get changed in errata). I personally don't like to deviate from RAW unless it really causes mechanical problems (like vicious weapons and the new invisible condition). So in the game I am DMing this means you are poisoned and paralyzed for a minute unless you have something that makes you immune to being Paralyzed or Poisoned or something that takes away one of those conditions (like an ally casting Lessor Restoration or Lay on Hands). Like I noted earlier, that is effectively what the 1E Crawler did.

The other three games I guess we will wait and see.

There is another weird effect here where Dwarves would get advantage on the first Dex save, as it causes the poisoned condition (and on successive dex saves if they were immune to paralyzed)

 

[Reynard]

"Is anyone at WOTC paying attention to what they print any more?"

Yes, because they got 99.9+% of things right.

But you find one erratum and make a post with a hyperbolic title like this.

Hyperbole seems to be going around.

 

[ECMO3]

If it was intended to be automatically failed there would be no point in including the text in the stat block. Ergo it must be possible to make the save, ergo this is a specific rule that overrides the general rule.

RAI and RAW are not the same thing. RAW it is not possible to make the save unless you have some thing that makes you immune to being Paralyzed or removes the Paralyzed condition from you.

 

[Maxperson]

The Paralyzed condition does not stop you from making dex saves, it just makes you automatically fail them. The fact the stat block says they get a save does not mean there has to be a chance of success.

It allows a dex save while paralyzed (as do all things that allow a save) but you automatically fail that save. To me this is pretty clear RAW.

What you are arguing is that the spell's very specific language that allows you to succeed at dex saves while paralyzed doesn't beat the more general paralyzation rules that say you fail all dex saves. You are arguing that RAW isn't RAW.

There is no specific verses general argument here. For there to be a specific versus general it would have to say you can succeed at this specific save even while paralyzed and it doesn't say that.

Yes it does. It says that you can succeed, otherwise there would be no language about success.

This is no different than someone with an 8 dexterity and no proficiency making a Dex save against the 22DC breath weapon of a Ancient Black Dragon. They get the Dex save, but they can not possibly make it regardless of the roll on the dice. They automatically fail. Same here while Paralyzed.

There is no language in black dragon breath about succeeding at a specific dex check while paralyzed like there is with the crawler. You are making the same mistake as @Oofta here and overgeneralizing what the crawler ability says and trying to apply it where it does not apply.

 

[ECMO3]

What you are arguing is that the spell's very specific language that allows you to succeed at dex saves while paralyzed doesn't beat the more general paralyzation rules that say you fail all dex saves. You are arguing that RAW isn't RAW.

The action's (it is not a spell) specific language does not say it allows you to succeed at Dex saves while Paralyzed from the Crawler Poison nor that you can succeed at this particular dex save while Paralyzed in such a way. If it did you would be right, but it does not say that.

Also to be clear this is a save against being Poisoned, not a save against being Paralyzed and it is possible to make it if for some reason you are not Paralyzed or something breaks your Paralyzed condition.

Yes it does. It says that you can succeed, otherwise there would be no language about success.

No it doesn't. Here is the wording:

Paralyzing Tentacles. Dexterity Saving Throw: DC 12, one creature the carrion crawler can see within 10 feet. Failure: The target has the Poisoned condition and repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. After 1 minute, it succeeds automatically. While Poisoned, the target has the Paralyzed condition.

There is no language in black dragon breath about succeeding at a specific dex check while paralyzed like there is with the crawler.

It is a dex saving throw, not a dex check and the wording does have language about success:

Acid Breath (Recharge 5–6). Dexterity Saving Throw: DC 22, each creature in a 90-foot-long, 10-foot-wide Line. Failure: 67 (15d8) Acid damage. Success: Half damage.

You are making the same mistake as @Oofta here and overgeneralizing what the crawler ability says and trying to apply it where it does not apply.

I am using the specific wording in the action and the wording of the paralyzed condition and not adding anything other than what the rules explicitly and specifically say.

 

[TiQuinn]

I think that is the way to run it RAW and I don't really see a mechanical problem running it that way (although I still think the wording is foolish, unintended and speaks to sloppy editing and game design).

So the way to go for you is a way where everyone auto fails?