D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

[Zardnaar]

Ehh from looking I don’t really agree. Plus your high amount of magic gear, that didn’t even follow the correct rarities. Like the vicious weapon being rare not uncommon.

Also for people talking about the DMG here is the recommended max amount of magic items

That's close to 20 rare items btw. 10 rings snd a vicious weapon each.

We did testing at 12 and some pcs had staff of power. I think an eldritch knight had one as well.

For stress testing looked at DMG and they could have a very rare, 2 rares and 4 uncommen. Half of the uncomment or commens were consumables.

Missed the rings and vicious weapons. Attunement slots were an issue. Generic +1 or 2 shields and armor were chosen often.

 

[ECMO3]

You really really really buried the lede on this! You are GEARED UP oh my god.

At 18th level - 2 Legendary, 3 Very Rare, 4 Rare and an uncommon that I am not attuned to. Add in about 10 various random potions and scrolls.

It is a lot, but I don't think it is WAY geared up compared to other high level campaigns.

You are going to get more than this playing DOMM end-to-end.

 

[Zardnaar]

At 18th level - 2 Legendary, 3 Very Rare, 4 Rare and an uncommon that I am not attuned to. Add in about 10 various random potions and scrolls.

It is a lot, but I don't think it is WAY geared up compared to other high level campaigns.

You are going to get more than this playing DOMM end-to-end.

Close to the guidelines.

 

[ECMO3]

Oh, interested in hearing how that one goes.

There is quite a bit of homebrew in that one. Class and subclass restrictions, some spells not available, a new homebrew class (psion). I can give a report afterwards.

We are using the 2024 classes with some homebrew, but I am playing two 2014 subclasses on my PC. I am playing a human Scout Rogue/Drunken Monk. It is the most non-magic Character I have ever played since 5E came out .... I still have Magic Initiate Wizard and Magic Initiate Druid as my origin feats; got to have something

 

[Mort]

In play in 5E they have not been an issue, mostly because Wizards at that level have so much power already. IME the Robe is actually better than a Staff of Power because of the bonus to spell DC and the latent always on defenses.

My Goblin Enchantment Wizard 19/Death Cleric 1 had both a Staff of Power and a Robe of the Archmagi. The Staff of Power was not that big a deal because my own spells were so much better and more effective. It was actually rare that I used it (before the finale when I broke it). Even if I didn't want to throw a spell, using Hypnotic Gaze with a 21 DC was often going to be better than what I would have done with the staff. Not always, but often.

Now if you get it at level 9 ..... well that is a different story.

If resource management is not an issue for the caster (as in they consistently have more than enough slots to do whatever it is they want to do), then they will almost certainly dominate play. At the least, they will make the various challenges (in and out of combat) way too easy due to the large number of levers they have at their disposal.

 

[ECMO3]

If resource management is not an issue for the caster (as in they consistently have more than enough slots to do whatever it is they want to do), then they will almost certainly dominate play. At the least, they will make the various challenges (in and out of combat) way too easy due to the large number of levers they have at their disposal.

An 20th level caster has 22 spell slots and that is before you consider things like Arcane Recovery and at will abilities that don't use slots (like the aforementioned Hypnotic Gaze). It is very rare that you will run out of slots at that level even if you have no gear at all.

For a full caster resource management, when it comes to lower level slots, ceases being an issue after level 12 or so (earlier if you have gear). The real resource management is deciding when you should use your 7+ level slots since those are rather limited, but you can pretty much spam the lower level slots.

For half casters or multiclass Gish PCs like my current character, it still usually isn't an issue. I might not have 22 slots, but I have 2 4th level Warlock slots and a 5th level caster worth of other slots. I am attacking a lot though (with Truestrike or Booming Blade) so usually I have a slot available if I want to throw a particular spell.

Right now bonus action economy is a far bigger issue for me than spell slots. My character has Divine Smite, Wrathful Smite, Step of the Fey, Misty Escape, Invesment of the Chain Master, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Bardic Inspiration, Steady Aim, Mage Hand Legerdemain, Lay on Hands and Cunning Action. Figuring which one of those to use for my bonus action on a turn is a bigger issue than the resource cost is if I choose one with a cost.

 

[tetrasodium]

To be fair I don't think there's a version of D&D where this isn't the case. Maybe 2E and BECMI/RC?

3E has legendarily bad balance, 4E's monster math took 3 monster manuals to correct, OD&D was more like suggestions than rules, and 1E is organized by the principle of Gary Gygax shrugging his shoulders. I've been saying for years that 5E doesn't need more intricate magic item crafting rules and prices for this exact reason. It's too easy to break the game wide open.

The critical difference is what creates the problem for 5e.

At every level of analysis 5e goes out of its way to roll out the red carpet for bad player expectations that Alice will be forced to directly or indirectly throttle back . Most notably are:

• Players are given the expectation of magic items while the monster & skill math has the expectation d&d is not a game swimming in magic items
• Yo-yo healing ensure PCs are basically immune to death. If Dave falls then Bob is 100% certain it's because Alice executed him as everyone watched it obviously being done to overcome yo-yo healing
• With death immunity Players don't really need to worry much about teamwork and start thinking with a bit of main character syndrome unless Alice is knifing their success with her house rules
• A completely bonkers skill system reinforces that MCS even outside of combat.
• Unbelievably trivialized resting &recovery further erodes any reason to worry about teamwork
• Most importantly is the fact that the system itself does everything it can to imply that the few limits it does have area thing the players are free to ignore by choice through the sheet not supporting it ((ie encumbrance body slots or even attunement tracking) subsystem design (ie encumbrance & Carry capacity is both overly generous to the point of being extremely unlikely to ever matter and not going to actually affect anything interesting even in those edge cases)

All of those mentally combine multiplicatively to give players bad expectations while ensuring Alice must play the bad guy instead those monsters for them to matter.

 

[Piperken]

My goodness, the party in my game is around level 3 and they only have two magic items: 1 common and 1 uncommon. Besides that, perhaps 3-4 potions of healing. I'm happy with just that.

@MonsterEnvy Is this list based on the DMG, per character, or number of in the entire party? :3

Ehh from looking I don’t really agree. Plus your high amount of magic gear, that didn’t even follow the correct rarities. Like the vicious weapon being rare not uncommon.

Also for people talking about the DMG here is the recommended max amount of magic items

 

[Mort]

An 20th level caster has 22 spell slots and that is before you consider things like Arcane Recovery and at will abilities that don't use slots (like the aforementioned Hypnotic Gaze). It is very rare that you will run out of slots at that level even if you have no gear at all.

For a full caster resource management, when it comes to lower level slots, ceases being an issue after level 12 or so (earlier if you have gear). The real resource management is deciding when you should use your 7+ level slots since those are rather limited, but you can pretty much spam the lower level slots.

At 18th, the wizard has only 1 slot each of 6-9th level, yes these should be a valuable resource and the DM needs to make sure they're not constantly replenished/available.

Also by that level, lower level slots are somewhat spammable sure, but the wizard needs to be pressed with ways to use them up - counterspell, shield, absorb elements, etc. If the wizard is only using slots for the stuff they want to use slots for - they are not being pressed enough. And if the wizard is constantly allowed to replenish (short or even long rest whenever they want), pressing them is nearly impossible.

 

[ECMO3]

At 18th, the wizard has only 1 slot each of 6-9th level, yes these should be a valuable resource and the DM needs to make sure they're not constantly replenished/available.

Also by that level, lower level slots are somewhat spammable sure, but the wizard needs to be pressed with ways to use them up - counterspell, shield, absorb elements, etc. If the wizard is only using slots for the stuff they want to use slots for - they are not being pressed enough. And if the wizard is constantly allowed to replenish (short or even long rest whenever they want), pressing them is nearly impossible.

You are not going to use them up. You only get 1 reaction a round, so you need to have a lot of fights, those fights need to be long and you need to be forcing a reaction every round, and things like counterspell - only one PC in the party needs to cast it.

My character is a 5th level caster for spell slots and 7th level Warlock with 2 Pact slots. In the thread above I posted above some of my experiences with spells from this game. I mean I have absorb elements, but I also have evasion, Warcaster and Investment of the Chain Master which a lot of the time is going to make Absorb Elements either meaningless (if I save) or something not available if I need to give resistance to my Familiar or if I use my reaction. I also have counterspell, but if I am invisible (as I often am due to Misty Escape or One with Shadows) I might not want to burn the invisbility and I might want to wait until the bad guy triggers a Warcaster AOO.

I would say the slot thing is not changed from 5E. In 5E you don't run out of slots at high level either.