D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

after a decade of running 5e I've learned that 1&2 are not a problem with the system
They're 100% a problem with the system. Your argument doesn't remotely address that, in fact, it shows that they were a problem with the system, and just provides workarounds outside that system.
Adjusting the difficulty and challenge of the game is something a DM has to do at every level for every group.
How much you have to do it is a big deal though, and how accurate CR etc. is, and how much you can get a "lock" on the PCs - like are they effectively say, 2 levels higher for the purposes of encounter design? D&D really wants us to use these tools and so on, and frankly all this "BAD DM LOLZ" talk means that easily 90-95% of D&D DMs (including a lot of people here, no doubt including some of the people saying it - not meaning you, to be clear) are absolutely "BAD DM LOLZ" material.

4. DM apparently has the tactical acumen of a concussed beaver. By @ECMO3 's account, no combat at very high levels is lasting more than 2 rounds. :wow: That's just insane. A 20th level encounter could be 4 beholders. I don't care what magic items your party has, that's a fight that's going to take more than 2 rounds. The only way that this is true is if every fight is in nearly empty rooms, no flying, no maneuvering, and the enemies never have any reactive abilities to escape. Something that is virtually never true in high level enemies.
You seem to saying it would take longer solely because the monsters would run away and hide from the PCs though lol? I mean, sure you could drag out an encounter indefinitely by having monsters kite and run away a ton, but there are three issues there:

1) It's terrible RP and anti-immersive for a lot of monsters to behave that way (not all, Beholders would, they're jerks like that - but 4 Beholders is a very silly encounter without incredible justification, given they're solitary creatures which hate each other deeply).

2) It's tedious and irritating, whether the PCs are doing it or the monsters. That doesn't mean never do it, but you can't make every fight "Catch that pigeon!" or World Chase Tag.

3) Not all monsters even can fly or otherwise kite.

If the PCs are doing a high enough DPR, stuff is going to get one-rounded. Rather sneering at and taking dumps on the DM in question, as you seem to be keen to do, perhaps we should ask about specific high-level encounters, and dig into it a bit more? I haven't played 2024 yet, but even in 2014, and even at like, level 13-14, I saw PCs who weren't even that well designed do burst damage of over 150 damage, which some monsters can survive, but if 2-3 PCs attack them and can all do that? Good luck!
 

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Like I said, Occam’s razor applies here. What is more likely? That your group is typical of play, despite no one else getting results like this, or, this is a very idiosyncratic table with a dm who has zero sense of tactics?
That's actually a great question.

Occam's razor 100% says most DMs have "zero sense of tactics" by your definition of "zero sense of tactics". Most DMs are not very experienced, not very skilled, not decades-long hardened grog veterans like us lot (and many of us aren't even good at tactics, as we often see).

So yeah by Occam's razor his is absolutely likely to be very normal and typical by your own logic. Something about petards?

And the whole "no-one else is getting results like this" is frankly, hogwash, because how many other groups are we seeing who have actually done 2-20 on D&D 2024? List them. It's not going to be many. I haven't heard of anyone doing much more than 2-8 yet, and those ones had similar issues to what is being described at lower levels.
 

But sure your fighter is routinely doing 200 points of damage because every combat must start from fifteen feet away and nothing can fly. 🤷

I've both DMd and been in a high level group where the fighter was getting close to this kind of damage (though not quite that high and not routinely) but fights lasted quite a while. By that level there were, as you said, flying baddies, invisible baddies (though, at high level, blind fighting style is a fighter's best friend), teleporting baddies, etc. and usually multiple foes that the fighter couldn't easily drop in one round.

If the fights are routinely going 2 rounds or less, even in a published module, the DM needs to adjust.

I ran into this issue with Turn of Fortune's wheel. My group was 6 people, higher than the module expects, AND most of the combats where way too easy even if they'd had less(I didn't mind throwing in easy fights as a change of pace, but it shouldn't be routine). I had to adjust the difficulty way up (especially considering the concept of the adventure, where occasional "death" is supposed to be a feature).
 

They're 100% a problem with the system. Your argument doesn't remotely address that, in fact, it shows that they were a problem with the system, and just provides workarounds outside that system.

How much you have to do it is a big deal though, and how accurate CR etc. is, and how much you can get a "lock" on the PCs - like are they effectively say, 2 levels higher for the purposes of encounter design? D&D really wants us to use these tools and so on, and frankly all this "BAD DM LOLZ" talk means that easily 90-95% of D&D DMs (including a lot of people here, no doubt including some of the people saying it - not meaning you, to be clear) are absolutely "BAD DM LOLZ" material.


You seem to saying it would take longer solely because the monsters would run away and hide from the PCs though lol? I mean, sure you could drag out an encounter indefinitely by having monsters kite and run away a ton, but there are three issues there:

1) It's terrible RP and anti-immersive for a lot of monsters to behave that way (not all, Beholders would, they're jerks like that - but 4 Beholders is a very silly encounter without incredible justification, given they're solitary creatures which hate each other deeply).

2) It's tedious and irritating, whether the PCs are doing it or the monsters. That doesn't mean never do it, but you can't make every fight "Catch that pigeon!" or World Chase Tag.

3) Not all monsters even can fly or otherwise kite.

If the PCs are doing a high enough DPR, stuff is going to get one-rounded. Rather sneering at and taking dumps on the DM in question, as you seem to be keen to do, perhaps we should ask about specific high-level encounters, and dig into it a bit more? I haven't played 2024 yet, but even in 2014, and even at like, level 13-14, I saw PCs who weren't even that well designed do burst damage of over 150 damage, which some monsters can survive, but if 2-3 PCs attack them and can all do that? Good luck!

I think all @Oofta is saying is 10 round for 7 fights is REALLY fast. Sure some combats can be fast 1-2 rounders, but 10 in a row, with most being 1? And with a mix of high level foes?

I would hope that's an outlier. If it's not (as in many different groups run through the adventure like this), that would seem a problem with the adventure. Or worse, if it's common (for various groups) outside of the adventure, then it IS a problem with 5e. But, while my experience with high level play is not hugely extensive, it is there, and I haven't seen this issue.
 

I've only DMed up to level 12 but I've seen actual plays of higher level games and if anything fights seem to take even longer at those levels. I think Vox Machina vs Vecna was 8 rounds and that was with a party of 8 players (including Joe Manganiello.)

So if 5.24 really has combats ending in one round then that's certainly a problem that needs to be addressed.
 

If the PCs are doing a high enough DPR, stuff is going to get one-rounded. Rather sneering at and taking dumps on the DM in question, as you seem to be keen to do, perhaps we should ask about specific high-level encounters, and dig into it a bit more? I haven't played 2024 yet, but even in 2014, and even at like, level 13-14, I saw PCs who weren't even that well designed do burst damage of over 150 damage, which some monsters can survive, but if 2-3 PCs attack them and can all do that? Good luck!
Yes, because focusing on a single throwaway example is productive?

Yup, if you're throwing single monsters at parties that are hyper focused on damage and over powered with magic items, sure, they're dropping the monsters that quickly.

But, the idea that the party is routinely ending EVERY SINGLE FIGHT in one or two rounds? And most of them in a single round? And you don't think that's just the tiniest bit unusual?

Lessee, we're talking 18th level PC's here. So, let's stick with 2014 rules, just for S&G's. 2 Ice Devils (CR 14) are a hard encounter. Note, by 2024 standards, this is a Low difficulty encounter. Right off the bat, since this is a 2014 adventure, we're seeing a big difference. But, let's carry on.

Note, I'm using stock 2014 ice devils here. Nothing fancy. And it happened to be a CR 14 creature I picked at random, and since you complained about using 3 beholders, is there a problem with a group of ice devils? No? Then lets move on.

Lessee, each has an AC of 18 and blindsight out to 60 feet as well as darkvision out to 120 feet. So, right off the bat, there's no way for the party to sneak up on them (virtually) and they absolutely should be attacking from outside the range of the PC's. Dropping walls of ice to divide up the party and break up sight lines. Sure, the party is taking half damage from the cold, but, I should be easily able to make this combat last 3-4 rounds without "kiting" or any shenanigans. Oh, and let's not forget that my Ice Devils can Gate, potentially. And, with 180 HP each, it's going to take 2 or 3 PC's ganging up on 1 to kill it in a single round.

And that's a pretty simple, stock monster in an easy encounter. Again, unless the encounters are all starting 20 feet away, in bright light, I'm baffled how you can think that it's typical that EVERY encounter lasts 1-2 rounds with most lasting only 1.

Finally, let's not forget, that I'm not only pointing at the very strange combat results. There's also the massively over powered magic item list, PLUS resting after each encounter, PLUS using 2014 encounter budgets. And, they are also getting this result from every single module? You think it's far more likely that the system, where no one else is getting these results, is the problem, but, it couldn't possibly be the DM?
 

Again I cannot even begin to understand how you achieve those paces. That’s just so far outside of my experience that I simply cannot imagine what your table looks like.

I heard a lot of that in the past.

But think about the context here - I started this campaign the week the PHB was released to the DM. You are saying that our pace is crazy and no one else is doing that, so if that is true how is it that all these other people have different experiences than mine?

But sure your fighter is routinely doing 200 points of damage because every combat must start from fifteen feet away and nothing can fly. 🤷

I am guessing you have not played with the new rules.

At 5th level any Fighter can move up to half their move spending a bonus action (Tactical Shift). With a move of 40 that means he can move 60 feet to get into melee on the first turn.

Now we are playing a published module consisting mostly of dungeoun encounters and I don't think a single encounter started further than 60 feet so far.

Additionally even if it did, he can throw a weapon and if he scores a crit (which he does on an 18), he can move another 40 feet on top of that without any action. Oh and he is often rolling with advantage and if he rolls less than an 18 he can reroll it since he gets heroic inspiration every single turn

How much high level play have you done in 2024?


Like I said, Occam’s razor applies here. What is more likely? That your group is typical of play, despite no one else getting results like this, or, this is a very idiosyncratic table with a dm who has zero sense of tactics?

Well considering we have played a TON of high level 5E prior to this and I have not seen anyone else post experiences from level I would say it is the former.

Why don't you point me to all the people reporting experiences from 1-20 play. you say no one else is getting results like this, but I don't see anyone else reporting results at all.

I mean seriously. You keep going on about vicious weapons. Do no encounters start at range?

It is a published adventure that is mostly dungeons and almost every high level fight started within range of a fighter (not a Wizard, not a Cleric, not a Barbarian).

I would say in 10+ years of 5E most fights start within 60 feet and just about all of them start within 100 feet.

No encounters feature lighting or sight line limitations?

We have that all the time. It doesn't slow down the damage the fighter does though.

No monster is ever invisible or has any means of either mitigating damage or some sort of reaction teleport? Nothing has flyby attacks and the ability to move through walls?

A ton of monsters are invisible in the game and we have had at least one that used a reaction teleport and the fighter used a bonus action and went right over to where they teleported to.

I do not doubt that you are getting these results but these are results that absolutely no one else is getting.

Can you point me to what they are getting?

The only 20 level Spelljammer module I know of for 5e is Harvester of Worlds. That you played through that entire module in 20ish sessions leads me to believe that your table is ignoring a lot of tactical complexity.

I believe the Spelljhammer campaign we played was called Shattered Stars. That could be wrong because I did not get it. It was a 1-20 5E campaign. I played a Dhampir Monk with a Death Cleric and Sorcerer dip. Here is the PC I used:


So yeah. Extraordinary claims require considerable more proof than “well this is my anecdote.”

I am sharing my experiences. You don't like it fine, but I don't really see anything substantial from you so....
 

At 5th level any Fighter can move up to half their move spending a bonus action (Tactical Shift). With a move of 40 that means he can move 60 feet to get into melee on the first turn.

This requires use of your second wind. Now granted, you get 3-5 uses between long rests at 5th level, but using it on the first round seems wasteful (you're giving up the healing benefit). Unless you KNOW combat is going to be just that quick and easy. And if that's happening routinely, the DM really needs to adjust!
 

No I am not sure you are understanding.



The adventure was made I believe in 2024 and includes a lot of the playtest stuff like Weapon masteries.

The party size was 5



No. We started at level 2, so it is 17 levels in 22 sessions. I am fairly confident we will get our last 2 levels in the next session (23 sessions, 20 levels)

It is a little slower than most of our previous non-XP 5E adventures.

Vecna was 9 sessions (for 10 levels).

SODQ was 11 sessions for 13 (I think?) levels

Moonshae Adventures was 19 sessions for 20 levels

Doomed forgotten Realms was 24 sessions for 20 levels

Call from the Deep was 14 sessions for 12 levels.

Spelljammer adventure (can't remember name) 20 levels in 23 sessions.



Once a week 4-hour sessions.
Ok, your sessions seem to be very efficient.

Probably because you can play every week.
 

Lessee, each has an AC of 18 and blindsight out to 60 feet as well as darkvision out to 120 feet. So, right off the bat, there's no way for the party to sneak up on them (virtually) and they absolutely should be attacking from outside the range of the PC's.

We are not sneaking up on anybody at all generally (although my PC is almost always invisibile)

and the monsters we are fighting are way more powerful than Ice Devils ...... they are more powerful than 5E or 2024 Ancient Dragons are in fact.

Attack from outside the parties Range?? How?

The maximum range thing an Ice Devil can use goes 60 feet. That does no damage and simply puts the party or most of the party on the other side of it. Our fighter can close 60 feet using a bonus action. He can close 100 feet using a bonus action and action surge and he can close 140 feet if he can manage to throw a weapon and score an 18 on the dice (and he gets a reroll on that).

That is the fighter. Our Wizard and our Bard can BOTH Dimension Door and they can both take someone with them. My character (Rogue/Warlock/Paladin/Bard) is not nearly as fast. She is the slowest in the group and can only go 60 feet without using an action, but she can misty step over difficult terrain to do it while also being Invisible.

Oh and that 60 foot wall of ice does very little damage. You use that and you either put the whole party on the other side (so the Devil's can't do anything) or you put it between the party and split them so you have a few party members on the other side deciding if they want to use any resources to break it down or just let the folks on the side with the devils destroy the devils.

Like I said I don't think you have played much high level 5E.
Dropping walls of ice to divide up the party and break up sight lines.

We are regularly blinded, but I have a familiar, so for the cost of a bonus action I can be "unblinded" at will. The cleric has Lessor Restoration, which is a bonus action to cast. The Fighter has tremorsense.

So can we be blinded? Sure, we are quite regularly. But it is also pretty easily overcome at this level.

Sure, the party is taking half damage from the cold,

Which is like not relevant at all. We get 25 temp hit points every short rest from inspiring leader and every other player except the fighter gets heroic inspiration from Musician every short rest. The fighter used to get it too, except now he gets it every single turn.

but, I should be easily able to make this combat last 3-4 rounds without "kiting" or any shenanigans.

Against 18th level characters?

My Rogue casts Banishment with a DC of 21 and being invisible cancels that advantage they would have on that save.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter is also DC 21, again with disadvantage on the save to cancel magic resistance and I have a good shot of putting both of them on their butt with a 2nd level slot.

That is the PC who is the weakest caster in the group!

Oh, and let's not forget that my Ice Devils can Gate, potentially. And, with 180 HP each, it's going to take 2 or 3 PC's ganging up on 1 to kill it in a single round.

Not if they are dead or incapacitated ... which they will be.

Again, unless the encounters are all starting 20 feet away, in bright light,

More like 100 feet, not 20 feet.


PLUS resting after each encounter,

We are not resting after each encounter. Who said that was the case? Also when you start talking about Short Rests, have you read the 2024 spells?

Prayer of Healing is a 2nd level spell and gives up to 5 PCs a short rest plus 2d8 hit points. When we use it, we usually only use it on 1 or 2 characters who need the rest so we can cast it again on the other characters who will need the rest later.

When the Fighter runs out of Action Surge the Cleric casts Prayer of Healing on him after the combat is over. When the Cleric runs out of Channel Divinity he casts Prayer of Healing on himself. When the Bard runs out of Inspiration the Cleric casts Prayer of Healing on him. Finally, when my PC runs out of Warlock slots the Cleric casts prayer of healing on her and when he does I get my slots back plus everyone else in the party gets 23 temp hit points and a Heroic Inspiration. If it is a convenient time for the Wizard to use Arcane Recovery we throw him in there as well. This greatly enhances our ability to recharge short rest stuff and it is a cheap 2nd level spell!

Oh I do have Rope Trick as well so we could safely rest after every encounter if pressed, but we don't.

We actually did a short rest as a party one time in the 5 battles we had in the last dungeon we just cleared (after battle 4, before the Boss battle).

PLUS using 2014 encounter budgets.

We are NOT using 2014 encounter budgets. As I noted earlier we are playing MCDM Where Evil Lives which uses monsters mostly from MCDM Flee Mortals which are substantially more powerful than their 2014 counterparts and generally more powerful than their 2024 counterparts.


And, they are also getting this result from every single module?

Well I have only played one campaign from start to [nearly] finished .... so yes it is from "every single module" as it is the only one I have played in 2024 at high level.

I am playing in another 2024 campaign, but we are only 10th level in that one. So I really can't comment on high level play in that game. That is also an XP game and although it is very easy now it is because we are 10th level playing a 7th level part of the campaign, mostly because we got more xp than expected early.

Similarities in that campaign are:
Low level spells are more powerful than before
Low and mid level combat takes longer than before (not more rounds, more time)
Bastions are OP

You think it's far more likely that the system, where no one else is getting these results, is the problem, but, it couldn't possibly be the DM?

Do you have results to report from other people?

To turn this around though - Do you think it is the system or the DM when this group of DM and players have extensive experience playing high level in 5E and have NOT had similar issues to this degree?
 
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