D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

[Mort]

I thought about something else to include and that is the save mechanics of high level fighters, Champions and the Mage Slayer Feat.

Indomitable becomes a real problem at high level because it is a reroll adding your fighter level on a save, which is almost always going to succeed (I don't think I have seen it fail yet) and high level you can do this up to three times a day. This may not seem like a lot but you only use it on a failed save, so it actually is a lot.

It gets worse though, Heroic Warrior gives the Champion Inspiration every turn in combat, so unless he already spent it to turn a miss into a hit, he is going to get to reroll a failed save before he even has to use Indomitable. Likewise the Mage Slayer feat lets him automatically succeed.

These effects, especially in combination make high level Champion fighters basically immune to any mind control feature (and will make most other fighters nearly immune to). This is a big difference in play as that used to be the weakness you would have your bosses target against them.

I really hate to ban or nerf specific class or subclass abilities but I would strongly consider it for Indomitable and Heroic Warrior.

Wait, so fighters finally actually have some effective abilities and you want to nerf THOSE?

For ex. indomitable is FINALLY not a joke!

But it's also VERY limited use and gives the fighter some hard choices. So hard disagree from me!

 

[ECMO3]

Would it not make more sense to just assume you can't freely buy Rare Magic items of your choice. A Vicious weapon is cool, but just should not be something you can freely find. Also Rings of Resistance do not stack as we discovered when we checked the rules having 10 at once only provides benefit from one. (Also what store would have multiple copies of every single Rare Ring?)

That would be fine if you were not playing a game where players could craft or buy what they want (and many games are like that), but if you are allowing players to buy rare items they are naturally going to seek out the best rare item.

If you want to say that certain rare items are not available, that will work too of course.

TBH though I don't like anything about the mechanics of either of these items, even if effectively made more difficult to acquire.

These exist and in turn make the vicious weapon less effective.

They only make the Vicious weapons less effective for people not changing the damage type (generally classes with Extra Attack). Most other classes are going to turn the damage into Radiant, Psychic or Necrotic through Truestrike or Pact of the Blade, although these characters either don't have mastery or can only use it once a turn if they do because they only have one attack.

I think this should depend. The Rules state there is a good chance the locations you are at won't even have the proper materials. And you need certain proficiencies. For Buying Common or Uncommon should be fine to buy maybe Rare once in a while, but you should not get free choice, the DM should roll on the tables a few times and put what is rolled for sale.

That's boring. The Bastions do a lot of cool things, and nothing that would be overly intrusive except for a few high level faculties and only potentially in that case.

Bastions add a substantial amount of power to players and the way the rules work this is true if you have a lot of downtime or little downtime.

In another campaign our Monk is getting a +1d4 to every unarmed strike because of his training area in his Bastion and some characters are rolling advantage on multiple saving throws.

 

[ECMO3]

Wait, so fighters finally actually have some effective abilities and you want to nerf THOSE?

For ex. indomitable is FINALLY not a joke!

But it's also VERY limited use and gives the fighter some hard choices. So hard disagree from me!

It is not very limited at high level. He gets 3 uses a day, how many important saves do you think an 18th level Fighter is going to fail in a day of fighting?

7 fights is probably about 10 rounds of combat for our party at 18th level. How many saves that matter do you think the Fighter is going to fail in those 10 rounds? Not three probably, especially when he is rolling every one of them with advantage and can choose to pass one before he even has to use Indomitable.

If it was just one use a day and combat lasted longer it would be very limited, but as it is now it is not.

I don't think our fighter has failed a save that matters since 14th level and I don't think he has ran out of Indomitable either.

Like I said I am really resistant to nerfing class or subclass features, but Indomitable is something I am probably going to nerf in my games. Maybe go back to the 5E version. I probably won't nerf Heroic Warrior if I nerf Indomitable as I think that is palatable if you don't have Indomitable to fall back on. Mage Slayer I think I will go back to the 5E version too, with an added +1 bonus to Strength or Dex.

 

[Stalker0]

I thought about something else to include and that is the save mechanics of high level fighters, Champions and the Mage Slayer Feat.

Indomitable becomes a real problem at high level because it is a reroll adding your fighter level on a save, which is almost always going to succeed (I don't think I have seen it fail yet) and high level you can do this up to three times a day. This may not seem like a lot but you only use it on a failed save, so it actually is a lot.

It gets worse though, Heroic Warrior gives the Champion Inspiration every turn in combat, so unless he already spent it to turn a miss into a hit, he is going to get to reroll a failed save before he even has to use Indomitable. Likewise the Mage Slayer feat lets him automatically succeed.

These effects, especially in combination make high level Champion fighters basically immune to any mind control feature (and will make most other fighters nearly immune to). This is a big difference in play as that used to be the weakness you would have your bosses target against them.

I really hate to ban or nerf specific class or subclass abilities but I would strongly consider it for Indomitable and Heroic Warrior.

to me that 100% the system working as intended, and one of the things that 5e initially dropped the ball on.

If you are going to have a game where high level magic users that can make wishes and alter reality stand together with a guy that "swings metal plank real good"....then you mainly have one of two ways to go about it:

1) Teh fighter is quasi magical in their own right. They can cut mountains with their swords, create earthquakes with a stomp of their feet. Aka the fighters is more demi-god than mortal at that point, and is capable of things that you could easily attribute to magic by another name.

2) The fighter is nigh immune to magic. Liches quake in their boots at the sight of a high level fighter, because even though the fighter is mundane they WILL....NOT....STOP. They cut through your summons with ease, the bat aside your disintegrate with a flick of their sword, their minds are indomitable fortresses you could not hope to influence or sway.

5e has FINALLY given fighters a leg to stand on in the arena of number 2, and its extremely welcome to see. Do not take that away from them.

 

[ECMO3]

The OP's campaign was too easy due to the party having an unreasonable degree of specifically desirable magic items, which is the almost inevitable result of magic item catalogue availability, fixed prices, and gamified crafting.

That is one reason it is too easy, but not the only reason.

 

[ECMO3]

to me that 100% the system working as intended, and one of the things that 5e initially dropped the ball on.

If you are going to have a game where high level magic users that can make wishes and alter reality stand together with a guy that "swings metal plank real good"....then you mainly have one of two ways to go about it:

1) Teh fighter is quasi magical in their own right. They can cut mountains with their swords, create earthquakes with a stomp of their feet. Aka the fighters is more demi-god than mortal at that point, and is capable of things that you could easily attribute to magic by another name.

2) The fighter is nigh immune to magic. Liches quake in their boots at the sight of a high level fighter, because even though the fighter is mundane they WILL....NOT....STOP. They cut through your summons with ease, the bat aside your disintegrate with a flick of their sword, their minds are indomitable fortresses you could not hope to influence or sway.

5e has FINALLY given fighters a leg to stand on in the arena of number 2, and its extremely welcome to see. Do not take that away from them.

Well that is ok if you don't want any challanging fights. If you have a character that is inherently difficult to kill with damage and also virtually immune to mind control or other debilitating situations then you have a situation where you are not going to be able to challange that character.

If this is intended, then it is intended that there not be balance in high level games between enemies and the party.

5E was already believed to be wildly unbalanced at high level, but except Monks (who were weak in general), virtually all high level characters were vulnerable to a number of saves, including either Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma saves even on the caster characters. I have played a lot of 5E games and I have not found spells to be as disruptive and unbalancing in high-level play as this is.

If you have a character that essentially automatically makes all the saves they attempt, you are taking away a tool the DM can use to make it more challenging.

 

[Chaltab]

If you have a character that essentially automatically makes all the saves they attempt, you are taking away a tool the DM can use to make it more challenging.

What was causing this problem in particular?

 

[Chaltab]

That's an easy mistake to make. At no point was my post about the rules of 5e and related design choices was I referring to your specific table. We are talking about different things. Difference being I explained how various design choices encourage multiple problems while you simply declare that all is fine at your table where you don't see one of those problems for reasons largely unstated.

But that's where I take issue: I don't think 5E's design encourages these problems, or alternatively, I don't think some of them are problems. Like, rest and recovery is not a flaw, that's the system working as intended to keep the game moving instead of having to slowly heal up after every adventuring day like in 3E and prior--or use a bunch of magic.

That may encourage playstyles contrary to yours, but it's a matter of setting expectations and choosing the system that does what you want it to.

 

[Hussar]

7 fights is probably about 10 rounds of combat for our party at 18th level. How many saves that matter do you think the Fighter is going to fail in those 10 rounds? Not three probably, especially when he is rolling every one of them with advantage and can choose to pass one before he even has to use Indomitable.

And that’s where you totally lose me. How incompetent is your Dm that you are ending nearly every fight in one round? I’m sorry but this is just ridiculous. Most of your fights are one round and none go more than 2?

This is 100% a dm failure issue and nothing to do with the mechanics.

 

[Oofta]

Wait, so fighters finally actually have some effective abilities and you want to nerf THOSE?

For ex. indomitable is FINALLY not a joke!

But it's also VERY limited use and gives the fighter some hard choices. So hard disagree from me!

Funny how so many people complained about how fighters were ineffective and now ... too good!