D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

[TwoSix]

And, as a whole, 5e monsters have fairly low ACs. I haven't looked to heavily at the 2025 versions, but I don't think they changed AC much at all.

Then you have easy to get advantage which means likelihood to hit goes up even more.

Interesting to see the math, but I suspect 2d6 per attack will outpace even a plus 3 weapon against an average monster meant for 18th level PCs.

It often does, especially since martials (non-rogue) are based around doing smaller hits more frequently. That's why flame tongue was generally the best melee weapon for martials that couldn't leverage 2014 GWM or SS.

Edit: Just double checked the numbers, vicious keeps pace with a +3 weapon at fairly standard weapon damage expressions (average 13-15 before hit check, like a 1d10+1d8+5 for a glaive using paladin with 20 Str), and jumps ahead at high hit chances in the 70%+ range, which is pretty normal or low when advantage is in play.

 

[Lazybones]

I was more worried about the armors that let you cast shield or other super-useful spells 6/day, but thanks for the heads-up on the rings of resistance and the vicious weapons. I would probably add a house rule limiting rings to 2/person, but it probably won't be an issue in my campaign, as I don't generally have magic shops in my setting. While I try to create means for players to get at least a few of the items that they want (e.g., a king might allow the party 1-2 items of their choice from the "royal vaults" as a quest award), I try to avoid gifts that potentially unbalance an entire campaign.

I have had the issue with a super-boosted AC character in my most recent (non-2024) campaign. He had the shield spell along with plate and shield and the defensive fighting style, which together pushed his AC well into the mid 20s. It was even worse since he was the paladin as well, with 20 CHA so his aura was intense and he could hit most saves. I did have to modify my challenges a bit, sometimes adding several additional tough foes so he could wade in and feel like a badass shrugging off hits and spells that would have devastated the rest of the party. Fortunately he'd get overconfident and wade in alone into situations where he'd get overwhelmed and then the party would had to rush in and save him (sometimes literally on the last death save), so everyone got to have fun, myself as DM included.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I'm still shocked they didn't fix this.

I know that they dialed up the superheroics for player characters even more, but the way yo-yo healing stands you up without consequence all the time surely couldn't have been intentional originally. But man, they've really just run with it since.

Well this adventure was not using new encounter design, was giving players near any magic item they wanted, and was more players than the adventure assumed.

It just doesn’t strike me as a good example of a typical campaign.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

It is quite a bit better than Flametongue actually. Having played with both of these in the same adventure, VW are not attunement, and as you mentioned do not take a bonus action to turn on. Those things are a pretty big deal in play.

Like you said Flametongue is arguably the BEST Very Rare weapon in 2014 and VW is substantially better and only Rare.

They also don't light you up like a beacon.

Flame Tongue is Rare. Same as Vicious.

 

[Chaltab]

The critical difference is what creates the problem for 5e.

At every level of analysis 5e goes out of its way to roll out the red carpet for bad player expectations that Alice will be forced to directly or indirectly throttle back . Most notably are:

• Players are given the expectation of magic items while the monster & skill math has the expectation d&d is not a game swimming in magic items
• Yo-yo healing ensure PCs are basically immune to death. If Dave falls then Bob is 100% certain it's because Alice executed him as everyone watched it obviously being done to overcome yo-yo healing
• With death immunity Players don't really need to worry much about teamwork and start thinking with a bit of main character syndrome unless Alice is knifing their success with her house rules
• A completely bonkers skill system reinforces that MCS even outside of combat.
• Unbelievably trivialized resting &recovery further erodes any reason to worry about teamwork
• Most importantly is the fact that the system itself does everything it can to imply that the few limits it does have area thing the players are free to ignore by choice through the sheet not supporting it ((is encumbrance body slots or even attunement tracking) subsystem design (ie encumbrance & Carry capacity is both overly generous to the point of being extremely unlikely to ever matter and not going to actually accept anything interesting even in those edge cases)

All of those mentally combine multiplicatively to give players bad expectations while ensuring Alice must play the bad guy instead those monsters for them to matter.

You're making a lot of assumptions that are emphatically untrue at my table... and the repeated assertions that main character syndrome is at play here strikes me as a 'hey kids get off my lawn' sentiment.

The OP's campaign was too easy due to the party having an unreasonable degree of specifically desirable magic items, which is the almost inevitable result of magic item catalogue availability, fixed prices, and gamified crafting. I say almost because 4th Edition made it work, but only by throwing off any semblence of reasonable economics and pricing high level items in the literal millions of GP.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Well here is what I would do:

1. Ban Vicious Weapons and make rings of resistance attunement

Would it not make more sense to just assume you can't freely buy Rare Magic items of your choice. A Vicious weapon is cool, but just should not be something you can freely find. Also Rings of Resistance do not stack as we discovered when we checked the rules having 10 at once only provides benefit from one. (Also what store would have multiple copies of every single Rare Ring?)

2. Play a lot of monsters that are resistant to BPS, this will drive down the effectiveness of martials who use extra attack with weapons and thereby make mastery less effective.

These exist and in turn make the vicious weapon less effective. Though this would be less of a problem if magic items were not freely chosen.

3. Make "Deadly" encounters the norm at level 9+

Deadly does not exist. And High Difficulty Encounters are much more dangerous than the Old Deadly ones ever were. Given that you used an adventure I think this is too soon to judge.

4. Don't allow buying or crafting magic items except for potions, scrolls and things explicitly allowed as part of class or subclass (i.e. Artificer).

I think this should depend. The Rules state there is a good chance the locations you are at won't even have the proper materials. And you need certain proficiencies. For Buying Common or Uncommon should be fine to buy maybe Rare once in a while, but you should not get free choice, the DM should roll on the tables a few times and put what is rolled for sale.

5. Don't allow special facilities in Bastions, make them flavor only.

That's boring. The Bastions do a lot of cool things, and nothing that would be overly intrusive except for a few high level faculties and only potentially in that case.

6. Going to 0 hit points and being revived before dying healing raises exhaustion by one level.

It's an ok Houserule.

7. Grappling someone moves you into their space (you occupy the same space while grappled so dragging through spike growth damages both of you).

It should depend.

Those things would make it better, I don't know if they would fix it.

Would not fix it for sure.

 

[Clint_L]

Well here is what I would do:

1. Ban Vicious Weapons and make rings of resistance attunement

Eh, I'd just make them very hard to acquire, same as other powerful magic items. I run a fairly low magic campaign, so they wouldn't be a problem.

2. Play a lot of monsters that are resistant to BPS, this will drive down the effectiveness of martials who use extra attack with weapons and thereby make mastery less effective.

I tend to agree - mastery has been WAY more of a damage buff than most anticipated (despite play testers reporting this over and over)

3. Make "Deadly" encounters the norm at level 9+

I don't pay attention to encounter ratings - I really think it is more of an art than a science because there are so many variables. Your group, for example, is FAR more kitted out than mine are.

4. Don't allow buying or crafting magic items except for potions, scrolls and things explicitly allowed as part of class or subclass (i.e. Artificer).

I go the other way and limit access to gold, while keeping those items very expensive. So saving up for a magic item is a big deal.

5. Don't allow special facilities in Bastions, make them flavor only.

I'm not using bastions; I really dislike them.

6. Going to 0 hit points and being revived before dying healing raises exhaustion by one level.

I like this, but I actually require players to roll on a critical hit table if they go to 0 HP!

7. Grappling someone moves you into their space (you occupy the same space while grappled so dragging through spike growth damages both of you).

Agree!

Those things would make it better, I don't know if they would fix it.

"Fix" is subjective in this case, but these all sound like improvements, for sure.

 

[tetrasodium]

You're making a lot of assumptions that are emphatically untrue at my table... and the repeated assertions that main character syndrome is at play here strikes me as a 'hey kids get off my lawn' sentiment.

The OP's campaign was too easy due to the party having an unreasonable degree of specifically desirable magic items, which is the almost inevitable result of magic item catalogue availability, fixed prices, and gamified crafting. I say almost because 4th Edition made it work, but only by throwing off any semblence of reasonable economics and pricing high level items in the literal millions of GP.

That's an easy mistake to make. At no point was my post about the rules of 5e and related design choices was I referring to your specific table. We are talking about different things. Difference being I explained how various design choices encourage multiple problems while you simply declare that all is fine at your table where you don't see one of those problems for reasons largely unstated.

 

[ECMO3]

I thought about something else to include and that is the save mechanics of high level fighters, Champions and the Mage Slayer Feat.

Indomitable becomes a real problem at high level because it is a reroll adding your fighter level on a save, which is almost always going to succeed (I don't think I have seen it fail yet) and high level you can do this up to three times a day. This may not seem like a lot but you only use it on a failed save, so it actually is a lot.

It gets worse though, Heroic Warrior gives the Champion Inspiration every turn in combat, so unless he already spent it to turn a miss into a hit, he is going to get to reroll a failed save before he even has to use Indomitable. Likewise the Mage Slayer feat lets him automatically succeed.

These effects, especially in combination make high level Champion fighters basically immune to any mind control feature (and will make most other fighters nearly immune to). This is a big difference in play as that used to be the weakness you would have your bosses target against them.

I really hate to ban or nerf specific class or subclass abilities but I would strongly consider it for Indomitable and Heroic Warrior.

 

[ECMO3]

Eh, I'd just make them very hard to acquire, same as other powerful magic items. I run a fairly low magic campaign, so they wouldn't be a problem.

That will work too, you are basically making them more Rare than their Rare rating would normally make them.