D&D (2024) Wrapping up first 2-20 2024 campaign this week, some of my thoughts

that was based on the DMG rules, are you blaming the DM for following WotC’s rules about crafting?
No, I said if the module assumes only access to the items in it (or thereabouts) but ALSO allows room for crafting items you're going to have an imbalance. I'm not blaming the DM, I'm saying that it's essentially a hidden rake for the DM to step on - which is possibly bad design.
 

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I'm quoting both of you because its the same response, mostly. Mort can skip the first paragraph as it's more for Oofta.

I'm a big fan of DMs. I think they are what make this game what it is. I think bad DMing is the reason for most of the complaints we see around here. A good DM can also make up for most issues in a system. The issues in this thread included. DMs here aren't the problem, and good DMs will adjust for these issues over time. We saw this in 2015 and 2016 as DMs adjusted to some of 5e's CR issues.

My issue is with item crafting, not DMs having to encounter balance. We see in the DMG, both 2014 and 2024, guidelines on gold rewards and on magic items by level. In 2024, under "awarding magic items" we read;

"The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play."

This leads me to believe that WotC knows that magic items have an impact on encounter balance. The number for the entire campaign, for rare magic items is 23. We will come back to that. Let's continue.

Next we see guidelines for gold found in "Treasure hoards" by CR. Under "Adventure Rewards" we read;

"As a rough benchmark, aim to roll on the Random Treasure Hoard table about once per game session."

Notice here, that for a CR 0-4, the lowest tier, the amount is, on average, 500 GP per game session. Keep this number in mind because it's important. Also looking at higher levels, you'll notice 5 and 6 digits in this number. Remember that too.

Under crafting magic items, we see another table for crafting magic items, crazy. This table shows time required and cost in gold sorted by rarity. For rarities up to rare items, it takes no more than 2000 gold and no more than 50 days. It takes less, of both time and gold, for lesser rarities. The gold amount is trivial under the guidelines outlined above, if you remember that number, even for low level parties.

It continues;

"Assistants. Characters can combine their efforts to shorten the crafting time. Divide the time needed to create an item by the number of characters working on it. Normally, only one other character can assist you, but the DM might allow more assistants."

So under the rules as written, a level 3 party can craft a rare magic item every 25 days. If you average 3 days per session, which is a blistering pace, a party of four can craft 2 rare items every 25 days with over 1000 gp left over. If you start increasing levels or decreasing the pace, the money situation gets out of hand even at low levels.

If we revisit that table on treasure hoards, that you should award once per session. We can see that a level 5 party makes enough in one session to craft multiple rare items. A level 11 party makes enough in 2 sessions to craft the entire 23 rare items suggested for the campaign.

A single session of level 17 play provides enough money to create every single magic item from rarities rare and below that is recommended for the whole campaign with hundreds of thousands left over. A level 11 party can garner enough in a handful of sessions.

What does this all mean? It means that given WotC's own guidelines, the players have enough gold to overwhlem the system in magic items. If you assume 2014's guidance on downtime stands, as no advice to not have downtime was included, the problems becomes obvious.

Under WotC's own advice, following their own guidelines, the item crafting they provided easily outpaces suggested magic item rewards. The implication is that WotC expects fast campaigns, in regard to in world time, to limit that number, or they just don't expect you to use the system at all.

The system, as written, is busted. It forces arbitrary time limits on campaigns and throws out a long history of downtime in those very campaigns. If you want to have longer campaigns with downtime, your only recourse is to simply throw out the crafting system or ignore published guidelines all together.


EDIT: You can also, just raise encounter difficulty to absurd levels. But I feel like just not using this silly crafting system is far preferable.

EDIT2: Oofta posted one of the tables mentioned above. Thanks Oofta!
Personally I love downtime and crafting, but I use a system (systems, actually) from different 3pp. In my case, it's mostly Level Up's system, with add-ons from the craftsman class from Mage Hand Press and additional downtime options from Adventures in Middle-Earth.
 


having to ignore that rulebook in order to have a decent game is not a good look for the rulebook however.
There are the parts of any rulebook that are highly subjective and always open to being ignored. Any player quoting us chapter and verse of any rulebook isn't welcome at our table.
 
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I'm quoting both of you because its the same response, mostly. Mort can skip the first paragraph as it's more for Oofta.

I'm a big fan of DMs. I think they are what make this game what it is. I think bad DMing is the reason for most of the complaints we see around here. A good DM can also make up for most issues in a system. The issues in this thread included. DMs here aren't the problem, and good DMs will adjust for these issues over time. We saw this in 2015 and 2016 as DMs adjusted to some of 5e's CR issues.

My issue is with item crafting, not DMs having to encounter balance. We see in the DMG, both 2014 and 2024, guidelines on gold rewards and on magic items by level. In 2024, under "awarding magic items" we read;

"The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play."

This leads me to believe that WotC knows that magic items have an impact on encounter balance. The number for the entire campaign, for rare magic items is 23. We will come back to that. Let's continue.

Next we see guidelines for gold found in "Treasure hoards" by CR. Under "Adventure Rewards" we read;

"As a rough benchmark, aim to roll on the Random Treasure Hoard table about once per game session."

Notice here, that for a CR 0-4, the lowest tier, the amount is, on average, 500 GP per game session. Keep this number in mind because it's important. Also looking at higher levels, you'll notice 5 and 6 digits in this number. Remember that too.

Under crafting magic items, we see another table for crafting magic items, crazy. This table shows time required and cost in gold sorted by rarity. For rarities up to rare items, it takes no more than 2000 gold and no more than 50 days. It takes less, of both time and gold, for lesser rarities. The gold amount is trivial under the guidelines outlined above, if you remember that number, even for low level parties.

It continues;

"Assistants. Characters can combine their efforts to shorten the crafting time. Divide the time needed to create an item by the number of characters working on it. Normally, only one other character can assist you, but the DM might allow more assistants."

So under the rules as written, a level 3 party can craft a rare magic item every 25 days. If you average 3 days per session, which is a blistering pace, a party of four can craft 2 rare items every 25 days with over 1000 gp left over. If you start increasing levels or decreasing the pace, the money situation gets out of hand even at low levels.

If we revisit that table on treasure hoards, that you should award once per session. We can see that a level 5 party makes enough in one session to craft multiple rare items. A level 11 party makes enough in 2 sessions to craft the entire 23 rare items suggested for the campaign.

A single session of level 17 play provides enough money to create every single magic item from rarities rare and below that is recommended for the whole campaign with hundreds of thousands left over. A level 11 party can garner enough in a handful of sessions.

What does this all mean? It means that given WotC's own guidelines, the players have enough gold to overwhlem the system in magic items. If you assume 2014's guidance on downtime stands, as no advice to not have downtime was included, the problems becomes obvious.

Under WotC's own advice, following their own guidelines, the item crafting they provided easily outpaces suggested magic item rewards. The implication is that WotC expects fast campaigns, in regard to in world time, to limit that number, or they just don't expect you to use the system at all.

The system, as written, is busted. It forces arbitrary time limits on campaigns and throws out a long history of downtime in those very campaigns. If you want to have longer campaigns with downtime, your only recourse is to simply throw out the crafting system or ignore published guidelines all together.


EDIT: You can also, just raise encounter difficulty to absurd levels. But I feel like just not using this silly crafting system is far preferable.

EDIT2: Oofta posted one of the tables mentioned above. Thanks Oofta!
In most games we've played, simply obtaining the ingredients to craft a magic item is expensive, time-consuming and risky. Abstracting crafting to a simple gold for magic item swap or purchase cheapens the magic item considerably. You can even make obtaining a rare ingredient for the item the focus of a full-fledged adventure or campaign. Then detail the actual work going into the crafting of the item. Some systems have detailed rules and rituals for doing this. The item once complete becomes that much more precious and valued and personal after all the work put in. And yet it's 'only one' magic item.
 
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Personally, I feel a rulesbook should be Tinker to taste, not Tinker to fix. These crafting rules seem broken and untested. This could be a challenge for inexperienced GMs.

Yeah I kind of do it like AD&D. Something you do rarely with DM buy in.

Cheap easy crafting whatever you want is a mistake a'la 3E and 4E. There's always going to be underpriced or S tier items that enable builds.
 
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Yeah I kind of do it lije AD&D. Something you do rarely with DM buy in.

Cheap easy crafting whatever you want is a mistake a'la 3E and 4E. There's always going to be underpriced or S tier items that enable builds.
Yeah, there are some uncommon items that punch WAY above their level.

Such as a weapon of warning - which (2024) gives advantage on initiative to all allies within 30 feet and also essentially acts as a sentry, waking up any allies if there is a fight breaking out. You only need 1 in the party and it's a big benefit for an uncommon item (which are relatively easy to craft).
 

Yeah, there are some uncommon items that punch WAY above their level.

Such as a weapon of warning - which (2024) gives advantage on initiative to all allies within 30 feet and also essentially acts as a sentry, waking up any allies if there is a fight breaking out. You only need 1 in the party and it's a big benefit for an uncommon item (which are relatively easy to craft).

Missed that one. Don't let PCs read the DMG.

Scroll and potions should probably be only thing players can reliably craft. And that's a maybe.
 

Agreed. @ECMO3 is the only poster on this board I know of whose group plays regularly and really stress-tests the system by focusing on completing modules quickly. Are their experiences going to be idiosyncratic? Of course! Hardly anyone else is doing that. But that's exactly what makes the data @ECMO3 is providing so valuable.
Whereas I strongly question the value of the experience. If “stress testing” results in a style of play that no one else is emulating, then the results are meaningless. Who cares if you do nothing but march enemies straight into hyper focused combat characters that are way overpowered?

The have to at least be reasonable initial parameters before data can be valuable.
 

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