D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[Maxperson]

You can; but for the sake of clarity you still might want to note which one you're referring to each time, if only for the benefit of those who don't have both versions to refer to.

I always do. 5e and 5.5e are used by me, unless I'm making a point about the silliness of both editions being called 5e.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, they did put out a free 2e-to-3e conversion guide to make forward-porting easier; which is more than I can say for the 3e-to-4e or 4e-to-5e jumps.

I still have that. It wasn't all that helped. It basically boiled down to "rebuild your character in 3e".

 

[Hussar]

I think the build the NPC like a PC rules were intended more for NPCs that adventure with the party. If I have 3 players and they need a 4th PHB built character to really shine, since the game is balanced around 4, I can make a Paladin or Cleric NPC to go with them if I want.

My point, though, is that it is RAW for NPCs to be built like PCs, so NPCs as PC classes are a part of the fiction.

Nope.

THe NPC "classes" in the Monster Manual were not built, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, using the player rules. You flat out admitted that anything in the Monster Manual is not using PC rules. Therefore, anything that is actually listed in the Monster Manual is not a PC class. It cannot be because, again, by your own admission, they aren't built using PC rules.

And, conflating an allied NPC that is mean to adventure with the group with an enemy NPC that the players are meant to fight is massively shifting the goalposts.

 

[Lanefan]

THe NPC "classes" in the Monster Manual were not built, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, using the player rules. You flat out admitted that anything in the Monster Manual is not using PC rules. Therefore, anything that is actually listed in the Monster Manual is not a PC class. It cannot be because, again, by your own admission, they aren't built using PC rules.

And, conflating an allied NPC that is mean to adventure with the group with an enemy NPC that the players are meant to fight is massively shifting the goalposts.

Given how many times I've seen one become the other (both ways), I think I'll just keep building them the same and have done with it.

 

[Hussar]

You can yell this all you like but there's some - maybe even quite a few - of us who don't and won't subscribe to this theory even if the rules say we're supposed to.

And that's perfectly fine.

But, be honest about that up front. Some of you are insisting that this is 100% RAW. Go argue with them. Like you say, insisting that PC's and NPC's are created using PC rules isn't part of the rules. So, if you want to use PC rules to create NPC's, go right ahead. But, stop insisting that it's somehow part of the game, because it isn't. And, other than 3rd edition D&D, it NEVER HAS BEEN.

This is how Orcs used to advance in AD&D (I believe this is the same in 1e, although I can't be asked to look it up):

For every three orcs encountered, there will be a leader and three assistants. These orcs will have 8 hit points each, being the meanest and strongest in the group. If 150 orcs or more are encountered there will be the following additional figures with the band: a subchief and 3-18 guards, each with Armor Class 4, 11 hit points, and +1 damage due to Strength on all attacks. They fight as monsters of 2 Hit Dice (THAC0 19). For every 100 orcs encountered, there will be either a shaman (maximum 5th level priest) or a witch doctor (maximum 4th-level mage). Shamans and witch doctors gain an extra 1d4 hit points for each level above 1st and fight as a monster of 1 Hit Die for every two levels (round fractions up) of spell-casting ability (e.g., a 5th-level shaman has d8+4d4 hit points and fights as a 3 Hit Dice monster.)

If the orcs are not in their lair, there is a 20% chance they will be escorting a train of 1-6 carts and 10-60 slave bearers bringing supplies, loot, or ransom and tribute to their orc chief or a stronger orc tribe. The total value of the goods carried by all of the carts will vary between 10 and 1,000 silver pieces, and each slave bearer will bear goods valued between 5 and 30 silver pieces. If the orcs are escorting a treasure train, double the number of leaders and assistants and add 10 orcs for each cart in the train; one subchief with 5-30 guards will always be in charge.

Orc lairs are underground 75% of the time, in a wilderness village 25% of the time. Orc communities range from small forts with 100-400 orcs to mining communities with 500-2,000 orcs to huge cities (partially underground and partially above ground) with 2,000 to 20,000 orcs. There will always be additional orcs when the encounter is in a creature’s lair: a chief and 5-30 bodyguards (AC 4, 13-16 hit points, attack as monsters with 3 Hit Dice (THAC0 17) and inflict an extra +2 damage on all attacks due to Strength). If the lair is underground, there is a 50% chance that 2-5 ogres per 200 orcs will be living with them. Most lairs above ground are rude villages of wooden huts protected by a ditch, log rampart and log palisade, or more advanced constructions built by other races. The village will have 1-4 watch towers and a single gate. There will be one ballista and one catapult for every 100 adult male orcs.

I mean, in that last bolded point, about the bodyguards dealing +2 damage on all attacks due to strength, they would need to have an 18 Str. But, they get no attack bonus from that. And, they aren't fighters because then they would get percentile strength. It's all inconsistent with PC creation rules. They do not follow the PC rules at all.

For some reason, and I think it's from people who started playing D&D with 3e and cannot imagine that it was ever any different, this notion that PC and NPC creation rules are related is just not true. It has never been true outside of 3e. I don't understand why people keep insisting that it is true.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope.

THe NPC "classes" in the Monster Manual were not built, BY YOUR OWN WORDS, using the player rules. You flat out admitted that anything in the Monster Manual is not using PC rules. Therefore, anything that is actually listed in the Monster Manual is not a PC class. It cannot be because, again, by your own admission, they aren't built using PC rules.

And, conflating an allied NPC that is mean to adventure with the group with an enemy NPC that the players are meant to fight is massively shifting the goalposts.

It doesn't matter how they were built in the MM. NPCs exist in all three forms, or are you seriously saying that I can't make an archmage using PC rules if I want to follow the RAW?

You know what, I'm done. You can go ahead and run a game where the only things in the world are what WotC puts out. I will have the normal wide, wide world where there are tons of classes and subclasses that exist outside of what WotC has put down. The monsters put out by WotC are not inclusive of all the monsters and NPCs out there.

 

[Hussar]

It doesn't matter how they were built in the MM. NPCs exist in all three forms, or are you seriously saying that I can't make an archmage using PC rules if I want to follow the RAW?

You know what, I'm done. You can go ahead and run a game where the only things in the world are what WotC puts out. I will have the normal wide, wide world where there are tons of classes and subclasses that exist outside of what WotC has put down. The monsters put out by WotC are not inclusive of all the monsters and NPCs out there.

Prove it. Using the 2014 PHB, create an Archmage that ends up with the ARchmage from the Monster Manual.

Better yet, what is the CR of a 7th level Human monk?

 

[Maxperson]

Prove it. Using the 2014 PHB, create an Archmage that ends up with the ARchmage from the Monster Manual.

You're asking for something irrelevant. The MM version is an abbreviated version. That's why there are three ways to make NPCs. Most of the time you don't need a full PC creation, but by RAW you can do it.

 

[Hussar]

You're asking for something irrelevant. The MM version is an abbreviated version. That's why there are three ways to make NPCs. Most of the time you don't need a full PC creation, but by RAW you can do it.

By RAW, you can create a monster. That does not make that a "class". Archmage is NOT a class. Full stop. It is not created using the PC rules. Again, full stop. The fact that you cannot actually do what you're claiming to be able to do proves that you are wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

By RAW, you can create a monster. That does not make that a "class". Archmage is NOT a class. Full stop. It is not created using the PC rules. Again, full stop. The fact that you cannot actually do what you're claiming to be able to do proves that you are wrong.

You do know that monsters are NPCs and NPCs are monsters, right?