D&D General I wish people would avoid name-dropping Gary Gygax

So yeah, I respect the man, but his way isn't any truer or more pure than any other
That is neither proven nor disproven, for any edition (except maybe 4e;)). It is as presumptuous to make the claim as to deny it - unless you have some empirical data to support one view or the other it's ALWAYS just been a matter of personal preference as opposed to ANY edition being manifestly superior. However, I do believe that ignorance of the history of the game and its development - including HOW it was played at various points in the past (as suggested by different sets of the rules) - leads to questionable assertions and conclusions by many as to whether ANY approach to the game, older or more modern, is inherently better or worse. It is therefore not surprising to see Gygax - without whom the game would possibly not have come to exist at all (partly because he was the only one who set about actually formalizing the rules to sell them) - repeatedly cited as doing things QUITE differently, to support assertions WHY older approaches and older rules might still actually be better.
 

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Especially how he played his personal games with different rules than he wrote in the 1e books. I mean, who didn't, right? But it's flawed to treat the 1e books as Sacrosanct (no pun intended) when he himself would use house rules that differed from those rules.
Exactly. And it isn't even like "well I chose to reinterpret X". This is straight-up "I know I wrote that you should passive-aggressively punish people who play non-humans, but how I run things, anyone can play anything they like, so long as they accept starting out weak and growing into their power over time."

Like...it's literally a full 180 degree reversal, directly and explicitly opposite what was written in the text. Hence why I mentioned that on many things you can cite Gygax both for and against any given position, sometimes back and forth over time. Official books often differed wildly from his personal approach on things, to the degree that it can be difficult to actually tell what, if anything, he believed personally on any given game topic. (I make no claims about any of his personal beliefs...though he definitely didn't do himself any favors on that front.)
 

That is neither proven nor disproven, for any edition (except maybe 4e;)). It is as presumptuous to make the claim as to deny it - unless you have some empirical data to support one view or the other it's ALWAYS just been a matter of personal preference as opposed to ANY edition being manifestly superior. However, I do believe that ignorance of the history of the game and its development - including HOW it was played at various points in the past (as suggested by different sets of the rules) - leads to questionable assertions and conclusions by many as to whether ANY approach to the game, older or more modern, is inherently better or worse. It is therefore not surprising to see Gygax - without whom the game would possibly not have come to exist at all (partly because he was the only one who set about actually formalizing the rules to sell them) - repeatedly cited as doing things QUITE differently, to support assertions WHY older approaches and older rules might still actually be better.
No.

Gary's vision is just that. Gary's. It's no better or worse than Moldvays, Cooks (Zeb and Monte), Menzers, Tweets, Collins, Heinsoos, Mearls, Crawfords, or Andersons. His version no better, truer or realer than any that came before or after.

But thank you for providing an example of the appeal to authority fallacy.
 

There is no Gary Gygax. Like, all those tables Snarf jokes about. Tables not alway consistent, rules and adventures he wrote, or just edited, or didn’t edit, he just went forward making up as he went along, or naval gazed his past ideas. Was all about rules, ignored the one’s he wrote. So there is no fixed Gary Gygax, he rules out everything and rulinged over rules. Is the guy that did the first DnD stuff (probably?). Much more Lao Tzu than God. Did some things, said some things, take them for what you will. And say what you want beyond appeals to authority.
 

That is neither proven nor disproven, for any edition (except maybe 4e;)). It is as presumptuous to make the claim as to deny it - unless you have some empirical data to support one view or the other it's ALWAYS just been a matter of personal preference as opposed to ANY edition being manifestly superior. However, I do believe that ignorance of the history of the game and its development - including HOW it was played at various points in the past (as suggested by different sets of the rules) - leads to questionable assertions and conclusions by many as to whether ANY approach to the game, older or more modern, is inherently better or worse. It is therefore not surprising to see Gygax - without whom the game would possibly not have come to exist at all (partly because he was the only one who set about actually formalizing the rules to sell them) - repeatedly cited as doing things QUITE differently, to support assertions WHY older approaches and older rules might still actually be better.
Uh...no, it is not presumptuous to say that Gygax's perspective is no more nor less "true" D&D than any other.

Older approaches cannot be better in the abstract. (Nor can newer approaches be better in the abstract!) They just can't. That's like saying that cars are better in the abstract than planes. They aren't, because they're for different things. Likewise, older approaches and newer approaches to D&D-related stuff are for different things. You would have to first assert that the playstyle and design-goals of early editions were better than the playstyle and design-goals of later editions, which I'm absolutely confident you cannot do, not even in principle, let alone in practice.

In the absence of that, all we can do is set a conditional: "if you are trying to pursue a Gygax-like style, then..." But most people today aren't trying to pursue that, because (if we're being frank) Gygax-like playstyles are not particularly popular. They have their diehard fans and absolutely, positively should not be neglected or spurned. But they also aren't for everyone, they aren't even for most people. These approaches deserve support, and we can critique whether that support achieves its design goals or not, but we cannot say that these approaches are better than other approaches.

But we can also determine that newer approaches TO Gygax-like playstyles can, in fact, be better than Gygax's approach! That's doing the "if you're trying to do X, then Y is better" thing. Dungeon Crawl Classics, for example, introduced (IIRC? I think they were first) the concept of a "funnel" adventure to get started. One of the serious issues faced by consciously old-school play is that it can take weeks or months to get a PC that survives more than 2-3 sessions. A lot of gamers today simply do not have that kind of time to invest. But they still want to play, and they still want to have an experience like the experiences of yesteryear.

Enter the character funnel: Each player plays several rapidly-generated, highly simple PCs through a brutally hard adventure. Most players will lose at least one character during the funnel, probably more; but that's fine, you have three or four or five or whatever. This teaches new players that characters are disposable, that losses are expected, that combat is swift and brutal and something to be avoided, that the only things that matter are things which explicitly occur within play itself, that "builds" and other considerations do not apply here, etc., etc. And it does so in a way that compresses weeks or months of play down into a 1-3 session burst of frenetic (and hopefully fun) adventure.

Character funnels aren't for me. They're a design I have zero interest in playing. But I recognize them for what they are: a brilliant solution to a real and serious game-design conundrum, how to preserve as much of the classic game experience as possible while easing its most burdensome aspects that make it a tough sell for the gamers of 2012-and-beyond (that being when it first released.) Character funnels are objectively an improvement over the rigidly Gygax-like approach to play, because that's literally what they were designed to be.

Let us not become the complacent mathematician who insists that you cannot improve upon Euclid. The Elements were an absolutely amazing achievement when they were set down, two and a half millennia ago. But modern mathematics is better. It couldn't exist without Euclid having done so much, so well, so durably--but absolutely none of that means Euclid's ways are better than ours today. Of course, that doesn't mean that we have nothing to learn from Euclid's approaches either--there's something to be said for the concreteness of his work--but without things like divorcing the concept of number from the concept of concrete distance, we could never have achieved calculus, and consequently, never have reached the stars.
 

Found this while digging through my library the other day....

IMG_8853.jpeg
 

Here is how to talk about Gary Gygax.

His words, here, to us.

There is so much awesomeness* in those posts.

Obviously, my first post in the thread went for the low-hanging fruit. But I've always believed you have to truly love something to know it well enough to find the humor.**

But I have written a lot about Gygax, and recently. Because he matters to me. But he was also a person, and like all people was flawed. He did amazing work that matters to our hobby, but that work in the TTRPG field was basically done in less than a decade. It might have been an insanely productive decade that for all practical purposes started this entire field ... but ... that was a long time ago.

Other than a few die-hard defenders of Lejendary Adventures,*** I don't think anyone believes that Gygax had creative relevancy past 1986 (and I am being generous). And that's okay! What he gave to us when he was pumping out material and starting GenCon and all that (and also bringing in other amazing creatives doing work) is more than enough!!!

But it also means that people shouldn't be name-dropping him as an appeal to what should be happening today. I love and still play AD&D (1e), but it's heavily modified, and I would never say that Gygax is an authority of how things should be in 2025. And he wouldn't either.

Finally, the problem with appealing to Gary is that Gary contains multitudes. If you want to use Gary to support your position, you can find a quote from him. And if someone else wants to use Gary to destroy your position, they can find a quote from him. And the thing is ... you can probably find both of those quotes in the same paragraph.


PS- As for the thread, I don't understand why people ever name drop. In fact, the topic of avoiding name-dropping is covered by Jon Peterson in The Elusive Shift...


*A little not-awesomeness, too, but that's been covered.

**There's a lot to unpack in that, but it's why some jokes feel good, and others don't.

***If you meet a diehard defender of Cyborg Commando, let me know.
 



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