D&D (2024) Should Saving Throw DCs just be Ability Scores?

[Minigiant]

People often ask "Why do we still have ability scores?"

5E went out it's way to not use them after generating ability score modifiers. There aren't many formula that use them. Nor are there a ton of feats of various prereqs that use them as benchmarks.

But Ability scores are a number value that is between 8-22 for more PCs and have increments that show variance within monsters.

You know what else is usually in that range: Saving Throw Difficulty Classes

What if your Saving Throw DCs were just your associated Ability Score instead of 8 + Proficiency mod+ Ability Mod?

You no longer have to calculate DCs on the fly or just make up random numbers for DCs.

• Spellcasting DCs
• Grapple DCs
• Species trait DCs
• Subclass feature DCs
• Crafted Item DCs
• Topple Weapon Mastery DCs
• Custom Weapon Mastery DCs
• Improvised Weapon Attack DC

Now DCa would start much higher. Ability Score is 2-4 higher than the Old Formula. So you might have to give PCs another Saving throw Proficiency and legendary monsters another legendary resistance.

I tried it at my last game. The warriors liked the high chance improvised actions (2024 got away from Attack Roll then Saving throw and does just one or another. So I went with that). And the casters loved the high failure of monsters. And it made a caster monster feel very scary as two members of the party failed their save by just so.

I also did a fun thing and let the players roll the mental scores of the enemy caster. 3 players got to roll it's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Based on their rolls, the mage was a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer based on the highest roll and got a extra spells, healing magic, or sorcery points respectively. Queue Quickened spell plus Cantrips when someone rolled 17 for CHA.

I found it as an interesting experiment and it got the players thinking about their odd numbered scores. And their scores in general.

 

[aco175]

It sounds easier and simpler which is something I always like. I'm concerned about the DCs now being too high and me needing to change a lot on the other end and if it becomes not simple anymore. To leave the boost in caster power 2-4 points higher than traditional, but it also means that bad guy caster saves are that much higher as well, but seem to be listed in the MM as 2-3 points lower than PC stats at the same level. I'm also wondering how this affects the fighters suck, casters rule argument.

 

[Minigiant]

It sounds easier and simpler which is something I always like. I'm concerned about the DCs now being too high and me needing to change a lot on the other end and if it becomes not simple anymore. To leave the boost in caster power 2-4 points higher than traditional, but it also means that bad guy caster saves are that much higher as well, but seem to be listed in the MM as 2-3 points lower than PC stats at the same level. I'm also wondering how this affects the fighters suck, casters rule argument.

That's why I suggested more saving throw proficiencies and legendary resistance.

Those are simple things to put on a sheet.

As for martial/caster, ability score DCs allows for easier martial adjudication.

 

[TwoSix]

Very similar to Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard, which also use Stat Score as the resistance/"save" score for most effects.

Anything that moves away from using proficiency bonus in something 5e-like I'm a fan of. The fewer numbers that need to be looked up to add to a dice roll, the better.

 

[Xeviat]

I like this idea in theory. Let's see where it goes.

Standard PC spell DCs start at 13 (8 base + 3 mod + 2 prof) and grow to 19+ (8 base + 5 mod + 6 prof + ? magic items). High ability modifier starts at 15 and grows to 21+. That's the same +6. It starts 2 higher...

My initial thought is just give monsters (and players) proficiency in all saves. That way, saving throws get a 1st level +2, and they at least grow by 4 without your ability scores growing. There's still a growing gulf, but it's not as drastic and can be covered by a save boosting item or two.

 

[Maxperson]

People often ask "Why do we still have ability scores?"

5E went out it's way to not use them after generating ability score modifiers. There aren't many formula that use them. Nor are there a ton of feats of various prereqs that use them as benchmarks.

But Ability scores are a number value that is between 8-22 for more PCs and have increments that show variance within monsters.

You know what else is usually in that range: Saving Throw Difficulty Classes

What if your Saving Throw DCs were just your associated Ability Score instead of 8 + Proficiency mod+ Ability Mod?

You no longer have to calculate DCs on the fly or just make up random numbers for DCs.

• Spellcasting DCs
• Grapple DCs
• Species trait DCs
• Subclass feature DCs
• Crafted Item DCs
• Topple Weapon Mastery DCs
• Custom Weapon Mastery DCs
• Improvised Weapon Attack DC

Now DCa would start much higher. Ability Score is 2-4 higher than the Old Formula. So you might have to give PCs another Saving throw Proficiency and legendary monsters another legendary resistance.

I tried it at my last game. The warriors liked the high chance improvised actions (2024 got away from Attack Roll then Saving throw and does just one or another. So I went with that). And the casters loved the high failure of monsters. And it made a caster monster feel very scary as two members of the party failed their save by just so.

I also did a fun thing and let the players roll the mental scores of the enemy caster. 3 players got to roll it's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Based on their rolls, the mage was a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer based on the highest roll and got a extra spells, healing magic, or sorcery points respectively. Queue Quickened spell plus Cantrips when someone rolled 17 for CHA.

I found it as an interesting experiment and it got the players thinking about their odd numbered scores. And their scores in general.

No, I don't think so. DCs at lower levels would be too high for those who rolled well and added their +2 to their casting stat. And then 20 levels later their skill wouldn't have improved and the save would be exactly the same.

8+proficiency+stat modifier isn't hard, or even moderately difficult. It's really easy to figure out and update. And it shows improvement over time, like you'd expect when you level up.

 

[Minigiant]

No, I don't think so. DCs at lower levels would be too high for those who rolled well and added their +2 to their casting stat. And then 20 levels later their skill wouldn't have improved and the save would be exactly the same.

8+proficiency+stat modifier isn't hard, or even moderately difficult. It's really easy to figure out and update. And it shows improvement over time, like you'd expect when you level up.

Wouldn't that cancel out with the likeness that the person who rolls in 18 would likely have rolled a very low number for another ability score and have a severe weakness due to the higher DCs?

 

[Maxperson]

Wouldn't that cancel out with the likeness that the person who rolls in 18 would likely have rolled a very low number for another ability score and have a severe weakness due to the higher DCs?

Not really. Rolling doesn't work like that. Sometimes you roll low somewhere else, sometimes you do not. In any case, it gets rid of advancement for spellcasting DCs, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. People like to feel like they are getting better at things as they level up.

Plus, if the player did roll low, that just means that it would be super hard to save starting at level 1, which would get really old, really fast. One of the primary points of how 5e does things is to allow saves to be easy enough that you don't need high numbers to have a reasonable chance to save.

 

[Minigiant]

Not really. Rolling doesn't work like that. Sometimes you roll low somewhere else, sometimes you do not. In any case, it gets rid of advancement for spellcasting DCs, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. People like to feel like they are getting better at things as they level up.

Sure

But there really isn't that much balancing in the rules for rolling very well or very poorly.

If you roll an 16 and bump up to 18 in the old way, you only get the 4 increases to DC from proficiency and the 1 increase from the bump to 20.

In the Ability Score DC method you get, 2 increases from the bumps to 20 and 1 from the epic boon.

Plus are we really sympathetically scrapping things for the guy with divine rolls at charop?

 

[DEFCON 1]

If using Ability Scores actually matters to someone, then sure, try it out.

If someone doesn't care whether the Ability Scores are "used" in any fashion or not, then there's no reason to switch.