D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[Hussar]

Just as an interesting piece of history. The very first instance in an official D&D product of a non-human or demi-human gaining a PC class was Strahd in 1983's Ravenloft module.

 

[Maxperson]

They have always cast spells. Yet, not once has a Death Knight actually been able to cast spells since a Death Knight has never, ever been a spell caster.

"Spellcasting. The death knight is a 19th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Charisma (spell save DC 18, +10 to hit with spell attacks). It has the following paladin spells prepared:
1st level (4 slots): command, compelled duel, searing smite
2nd level (3 slots): hold person, magic weapon
3rd level (3 slots): dispel magic, elemental weapon
4th level (3 slots) : banishment, staggering smite
5th level (2 slots): destructive wave (necrotic)"

You sure about that? That's the 5e MM. They are in fact a spellcaster there.

 

[Maxperson]

Just as an interesting piece of history. The very first instance in an official D&D product of a non-human or demi-human gaining a PC class was Strahd in 1983's Ravenloft module.

That isn't correct. Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were PC classes in basic, and those NPCs appeared with those PC classes in B1 in 1978. D1 for AD&D 1e also came out in 1978 and had elf drow fighters, clerics and magic users in it. 1978 is the earliest that I could find official modules being released.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

That isn't correct. Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were PC classes in basic, and those NPCs appeared with those PC classes in B1 in 1978. D1 for AD&D 1e also came out in 1978 and had elf drow fighters, clerics and magic users in it. 1978 is the earliest that I could find official modules being released.

I think that @Hussar ‘s grammatical ambiguity could be parsed as non- (human or demi-human), i.e. the first appearance of a “monster” with class levels was I6 Ravenloft.

Not sure if that’s accurate, but I think that’s what they meant.

 

[Remathilis]

I think that @Hussar ‘s grammatical ambiguity could be parsed as non- (human or demi-human), i.e. the first appearance of a “monster” with class levels was I6 Ravenloft.

Not sure if that’s accurate, but I think that’s what they meant.

This is how I read it.

 

[pawsplay]

While I6 appeared in 1983, the D&D Companion Set was right on its heels in 1984 with manscorpion clerics. The 1978 Monster Manual also had the lich, and AD& had dwarf clerics who hence classed monsters; PC dwarfs were barred, in fact.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

While I6 appeared in 1983, the D&D Companion Set was right on its heels in 1984 with manscorpion clerics. The 1978 Monster Manual also had the lich, and AD& had dwarf clerics who hence classed monsters; PC dwarfs were barred, in fact.

To be fair, liches (regardless of their in-game rationale of being powerful MUs) follow the same pattern as, say, nagas or sphinxes - monster HD with baked-in caster levels: what would be later known as “integrated caster levels.”

And dwarf clerics don’t fall within the “non-(human or demi-human)” category.

So @Hussar ‘s original assertion may have merit.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Meh. Losing players constantly gaming the system so they can eke out every single drop of power out of a spell is not a loss. The spell does pretty much exactly what it was always going to do, just with far less muss and fuss.

The spell doesn’t do much of what it did before. So your second statement is completely false outside your own personal table, at most.

And again, the goal of avoiding players flipping through the books for the perfect monster and rounds slowing down could have been accomplished without needing the utility completely out of the spell.

 

[Maxperson]

I think that @Hussar ‘s grammatical ambiguity could be parsed as non- (human or demi-human), i.e. the first appearance of a “monster” with class levels was I6 Ravenloft.

Not sure if that’s accurate, but I think that’s what they meant.

That could be. I read it as non-human(say vampire) or demi-human.

 

[Hussar]

That isn't correct. Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were PC classes in basic, and those NPCs appeared with those PC classes in B1 in 1978. D1 for AD&D 1e also came out in 1978 and had elf drow fighters, clerics and magic users in it. 1978 is the earliest that I could find official modules being released

Reread what I wrote.

The first non-human or demihuman. Elves, dwarves and halflings are demihumans. As are drow.

Just to be perfectly clear.

Before I6, there were no npcs with class who were not either human or Demi-human. Vampires are not Demi humans. Niches are not Demi humans. Ki-rin are not Demi humans. They did have spell casting baked in but were not actual class holding.