D&D General Why grognards still matter

[DinoInDisguise]

To a point, this is true.

There's also the many who enjoy 5.xe simply because it's what they have, and-or have been exposed to, without looking at it very deeply or really considering its strengths and weaknesses.

This is similar to 1982 when all kinds of people really enjoyed 1e because it's what they had, or had been exposed to, even though hindsight now tells us the game design itself had some rather large holes and flaws in it.

The difference today is that while anyone who cares enough to look can find some holes and flaws in 5.xe design, we have much better and more immediate means of communication to discuss, analyze, and propose fixes for those issues; and in arenas much bigger than our own home tables.

A little warning, I'm a bit fiery tonight.

What I said was true. It doesn't take much reading to go back through the old threads from this last year and find the behavior I cite. Post after post listing reason after reason for why 5e is more popular than it should be. Excuses for how so many could like something so bad. Person after person telling me why I like the system, and how I'm wrong for doing so.

This is similar to 1982 when all kinds of people really enjoyed 1e because it's what they had, or had been exposed to, even though hindsight now tells us the game design itself had some rather large holes and flaws in it.

Look at that, the very black magic I cited. A reason for how if 5e players only knew better. If they only experienced more. If they only could see the light. Maybe than, just maybe, they'd find the folly of their ways. Maybe then they'd believe the whiteboard over their experience in-game. It's the exact thing my post was pointing out, a subtle, possibly unintentional, demeaning of the system's fans as simply ignorant, uninformed or worse.

Since I've joined these forums, so many have partook in the past time of blaming 5e's success on boogeyman after boogeyman. Insulting and belittling it's fan base with wild and unfounded claims of brainwashing and ignorance. Finally, we watch those people squirm for relevance, as the hobby continues it's march towards those very 5e players they spent so long dismissing.

Opinions can vary but there is some level of irony that we muse about people's opinion mattering, as we have repeatedly found ways to downplay and dismiss the opinion of those who like the system as is. We minimize the likes of others with countless adjectives and excuses while we trumpet our own views as prophetic and meaningful.

Maybe, in the future, it would be better if we stop. And we don't make condescending remarks about systems others enjoy and we refrain from saying, "you only enjoy it because." Maybe than, you won't have people like myself amused by threads like these. Amused that the very people who belittled and insulted my view of a system are scrambling for someone to care about theirs.

Or, more likely, by next week there will be yet another discussion where someone says, "if only 5e players would." As if we are all just to dumb to see it their way. Because their way is right and I'm just brainwashed, uninformed or worse.

 

[Older Beholder]

Maybe, in the future, it would be better if we stop. And we don't make condescending remarks about systems others enjoy and we refrain from saying, "you only enjoy it because." Maybe than, you won't have people like myself amused by threads like these. Amused that the very people who belittled and insulted my view of a system are scrambling for someone to care about theirs.

A good start would be to not rank people on a scale from Novice to Grandmaster based on the edition they started with.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I'm missing something here, I think. Are you saying grogs don't (generally) want new settings? And if not, what are you saying?

For my part, I suppose I'm a grognard and yet I'd have no problem with WotC bringing back Nentir Vale as a setting and-or points of light as a setting concept. Or Glorantha, but they might have a hard time getting their mitts on it as someone else owns the copyright; ditto Golarion, which also has quite a bit going for it as a generic setting.

You are kind of illustrating @Chaosmancer ‘s point here: “want new settings” is different from “have no problem with WotC bringing back Nentir Vale”.

If WotC brought back Nentir Vale for 5.5, would you even buy it? How many 5e settings have you bought?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It can't be good enough for that person if it doesn't have what that person wants. It may be be good enough for lots of other folks. But why would that matter to the person for whom it isn't?

Because they are not a self-centred monster?

 

[Lanefan]

You are kind of illustrating @Chaosmancer ‘s point here: “want new settings” is different from “have no problem with WotC bringing back Nentir Vale”.

Which is a neat trick, as I wasn't sure just what Chaosmancer's point was, hence my initial questions in the post you quoted.

If WotC brought back Nentir Vale for 5.5, would you even buy it?

Maybe. I'd certainly give it a long look, and if it gave me enough ideas to mine for a new homebrew setting or if I thought I could use it as-is, then yes (assuming it's in physical-book form).

How many 5e settings have you bought?

Zero, but then during the 5.xe era I haven't needed a new setting; I've been running a still-going campaign in my homebrew setting since the year 4e came out, never mind 5.xe.

But that campaign won't last forever, and I might need a new setting for the next one, so...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I might need a new setting for the next one, so...

Start working on it now. Homebrew settings are the One True Grog way.

 

[Lanefan]

Start working on it now. Homebrew settings are the One True Grog way.

When I get a sense I'm about 1-2 years out from needing it, that's what I'll do (the last one took me about 1.5 years to develop, from initial concept to playable). Something like a rebooted Nentir Vale could, in fact, prove useful for this; I quite like the general concept of points-of-light and if this hypothetical new book was any good I could probably find a lot to mine from it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The thing about having many decades of experience is you learn to do it all yourself. You can make your own settings, monsters, rules etc, so you don’t need WotC to provide any of that stuff for you, and unless you are a collector, you have no reason to buy a lot of books.

The one thing WotC can do for you is to attract new players into the hobby, to make it easier to find people to play with.

 

[nevin]

The thing about having many decades of experience is you learn to do it all yourself. You can make your own settings, monsters, rules etc, so you don’t need WotC to provide any of that stuff for you, and unless you are a collector, you have no reason to buy a lot of books.

The one thing WotC can do for you is to attract new players into the hobby, to make it easier to find people to play with.

I'm more likely to buy supplements that have some cool idea I haven't seen or a module that I like that could be incorporated into a current game. Especially when the world take's all my prep time. I think WOTC misses the mark by not having a virtual gaming store where thier stuff is for sale and 3rd party store fronts can sell thier stuff. Basically Amazon for DND. But for now they are dead set on selling all the players as many books as they can. Really feels like TSR just before WOTC took them over.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm more likely to buy supplements that have some cool idea I haven't seen or a module that I like that could be incorporated into a current game

Which is why I think Radiant Citadel is the best recent product. Drawing on cultures that are unfamiliar to me is pretty much the only way to come up with something I haven’t already thought of.