D&D (2024) D&D Marilith Is Far More Bestial In 2025

The new 2025 Monster Manual has all-new art, and one major change is the depiction of the marilith. Up until now, the marilith has been depicted as a six-armed humanish female from the waist up; while in the 2025 book, the picture is far more bestial in nature.

Not only is the imagery more demonic, it also features the creature in action, simultaneously beheading, stabbing, and entwining its foes with its six arms and snake-like tail.

mariliths.png

Left 2025 Marilith / Right 2014 Marilith
 

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I see where this is going, and I’ll step out of this conversation now
Yeah, I think I will see myself out too. I feel like disliking the new design is being taken as some kind of statement or position that I am not taking, and its starting to feel uncomfortable.

But! I will say it's Alanis Morissette ironic to me that your profile pic is Lae'zel, because she is kind of everything I would like to see in a marilith. I just want more fierce queens in the world.
 

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Are demons creatures of the afterlife? I don't thank that is 100% consistent with there lore. Definitely not 4e which the only thing that comes to mind at the moment. If that is your personal thought, that is fine of course. My opinion on demons and sex is my own as well. Much like deities, I don't see fiends as needing mortal souls to exist and feel it lessens outer planar creatures if they are dependent on mortals from the Prime. But that is just my viewpoint
This is 3e lore. This lore comes from 2e at the least. Not sure if 1e said it anywhere.

"Those souls from the Material Plane that are not simply absorbed into the structure of the Abyss become petitioners called manes."

So the demons known as Manes were mortals once. Promotions come from the manes up to the next step. And those from the next step sometimes get promoted an additional step. And so on all the way up to balor. So mariliths were once mortals.

Devils have a similar process from mortal to lemure and then all the way up to pit fiend.

I don't think 4e is really the edition to be relying on when it comes to lore. Every time I look up lore for a creature, it's so sparse that it seem that edition flipped the bird at lore in general.

5e says...

"Other demons (such as manes) are created from mortal souls shunned or cursed by the gods, or which are otherwise trapped in the Abyss."

And...

"A demon might spawn as a manes, then become a dretch, and eventually transform to a vrock after untold time spent fighting and surviving in the Abyss. Such elevations are rare, however, for most demons are destroyed before they attain significant power. The greatest of those that do survive make up the ranks of the demon lords that threaten to tear the Abyss apart with their endless warring."

So 5e retained the lore from 2e(possibly 1e) and 3e. I'm not sure what 5.5e says.
 


5e Lore made it clear there is not a set evolution schedule. Demons can transform into a more powerful type with time, and the Demon Lords can transform their minions into different forms though it’s not based on merit like in the nine hells but what the demon lords need at the time. So transforming some drench into Hezrou for some shock troops or some hezrou into quasits cause they want scouts.
 


I don't really get this "tactical genius" thing. I assume it's a Planescape-ism.

I do get the "regal grace" thing.

In Eldritch Wizardry, the picture of the Type V Demon (p 34) is near-identical to that in the AD&D MM, except in mirror-image. The table on p 27 gives them AC 7 and HD 7. The text (p 33) describes them as "Another of the female demons with a mutiarmed torso atop the body of a great snake", while the table on p 12 says that they do 2-8 damage with their "tail constriction". Page 33 also states that they have 80% magic resistance, and identifies, as their at-will magic abilities, cause 5' R darkness, charm person, levitate (as 11th level MU), read languages, detect invisible objects, cause pyrotechnics, polymorph self, project image and 50% chance to gate in another demon (01-30 Type I; 31-55 Type II; 56-70 Type III; 71-85 Type IV; 86-95 Type VI; 96-00 a Demon Prince).

It also says that "Their intelligence is high", but there is nothing mentioned about tactical genius.

The textual description of the AD&D Monster Manual's Type V Demon (p19) is very similar to Eldritch Wizardry:

Another of the female demons with a multiarmed female torso atop the body of a great snake . . . They can constrict a victim with their snakey tails as well.​

So it's no real surprise that someone would think of them as a snake demon. Their tail damage, at 2-8, is the same as a giant constrictor snake (MM pp 88-9).

Their at-will magic abilities are the same as Eldritch Wizardry: cause 5' R darkness; charm person, levitate (as an 11th level magic-user), read languages, detect invisible object, cause pyrotechnics, polymorph self project image, and gate in a demon (50% chance of successfully opening the gate: 01-30 Type I Demon; 31-55 Type II Demon; 56-70 Type III Demon; 71-85 Type IV Demon; 86-95 Type VI Demon; 96-pp one Demon Lord or Prince).

Here are their key defensive features :

* HD 7+7;

* AC -7/-5 is one of the best ACs in the book {the rules don't specify the different ACs, and AD&D has no rules for hit location, but I assume the better AC is for the snake-scaled part of the demon's body);

* 80% magic resistance, which is also pretty strong.​

Compared to Eldritch Wizardry, it seems that a "-" sign has been stuck onto the AC for the Type V (7 => -7) and the Type VI (2 => -2) Demons. The result, for the Type V, given the lack of armour in the description and depiction, is an image of a being that can dodge and/or parry just about any attack.

Their Intelligence is listed as High, which the MM tells us (p 6) means Int 13-14. All that is said about their relationship to other demons is that "Lower level demons greatly fear the domineering and cruel type V demons".

Nothing is said about tactical genius.

I don't think 4e is really the edition to be relying on when it comes to lore. Every time I look up lore for a creature, it's so sparse that it seem that edition flipped the bird at lore in general.
This claim about the 4e MM is a myth, and has been debunked in multiple previous threads.

On the issue of demons and tactics, the 4e MM says this (p 52):

. . . demons are living engines of annihilation. They embody the destructive forces of chaos. All things tend to decay into entropy, but demons exist to hurry that process along.

Fear and mercy are utterly alien to demons’ minds. Hate and savagery are their only masters, destruction their only pleasure. They care nothing for plans or structure, banding together only in rampaging hordes, not nations or legions. There is nothing subtle about them: They are not manipulators or schemers, nor are they tempters or bargain makers. While a demonic presence might turn mortals toward corruption through indirect influence, demons do not actively lure other creatures toward evil; they burn them alive or rip them to quivering shreds.​

This conforms to what @Hussar has been posting in this thread.

On the origin of demons, the 4e MM says this (same page):

In the earliest days of creation, even before the gods and primordials began their terrible war, one god was not content with sharing power . . . Somewhere in the infinite expanse of space, he found the weapon he sought in the form of a tiny shard of utter evil. . . he carried the crystalline fragment into the depths of the universe - into the lowest reaches of the primordial vastness that would one day become the Elemental Chaos - and planted it there. . . . The Abyss was born.

The evil of the Abyss corrupted even some of the mighty primordials - Demogorgon, Baphomet, Orcus - and reshaped them into the likeness of pure destructive evil. . . .

the Abyss remains, a festering cyst beneath the Elemental Chaos. Within its lightless depths, demons erupt into birth, live out their short and violent lives, and are reabsorbed into the darkness. Demon princes rule their petty Abyssal domains, scheming to destroy the gods and all their works. . . . And somewhere far beneath all imagining, the crystalline Heart of the Abyss still beats its unceasing cadence of evil.​

This fits with @dave2008's post upthread.

On Mariliths, the 4e MM says (p 57):

This six-armed, serpentine terror delights in hacking enemies to pieces with its swords, doing so with horrifying ease
and astonishing grace. . . . Mariliths are obsessed with martial skill, and they take trophy weapons from particularly fierce opponents, which they hide in secret caches - sometimes in the depths of the Abyss, sometimes in the world.​

This presents Marilith's as snake demons ("serpentine terrors") but also emphasises their grace and their taking of trophy weapons. Their stats are Str 28, Con 20, Dex 26, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 22 - the high Dex fits with their grace, the high Str with their martial skill and hacking-ness, and the Int 14 is the same as AD&D. They are trained in Bluff and Intimidate, in Insight and Perception and in Stealth. Their default action in combat is to make two attacks, and to parry with their other scimitars so as to buff their AC by +4.

Compared to the original versions of the Type V Demon, the 4e Marilith has the same basic vibe in melee combat, though without the constricting tail. In lieu of charm, illusion-esque and shape-changing magic, it has skill in Bluff and Intimidate. It does lose levitation, and the generic demonic ability to teleport at will without error, but to me at least these are not central to the feel of a Type V Demon.

The 4e MM says nothing about a Marilith being always female. Nor does it say anything about tactical genius.

I think the new picture, which - as per the thread title - presents a demon who is far more bestial, does not really preserve the notion of grace and guile that is found in the AD&D and 4e versions. Whether that grace and guile are consistent with the demonic lack of subtlety, as a general feature of demons, is a further matter.

The link between grace and guile, and being a serpent, seems fairly clear to me. But it also seems pretty clear that linking grace and guile to a female demon has a sexist dimension to it, which WotC presumably is deliberately departing from.
 

I don't really get this "tactical genius" thing. I assume it's a Planescape-ism.
They were painted as tactical geniuses in the 3.5e MM, at least. For example, fluff text indicated that they "are generals and tacticians, often rivaling balors in sheer brilliance and cunning"; that they "thrive on grand strategy and army level tactics"; and so forth.

eta: Similar verbiage is found in PF1e: "The leaders of Abyssal hordes and queens of Abyssal nations, the dreaded mariliths serve demon lords as governesses, advisors, and even lovers, yet their brilliance as tacticians makes them most sought after as generals and commanders of armies."

eta: links
 
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I don't really get this "tactical genius" thing. I assume it's a Planescape-ism.

I do get the "regal grace" thing.
Not just Planescape, though I'm sure it's there as well. The 2e MM writeup mentions, "Although marilith are strategists and tacticians, they love to join combat and do so whenever the opportunity presents itself."

I think(but not positive) that the Bloodwar stuff in Planescape mentions them being generals and tactical geniuses.
This claim about the 4e MM is a myth, and has been debunked in multiple previous threads.
I made no claim about 4e. I made an observation which hasn't and cannot be debunked. Now, it's based on only looking at 3 or 4 monsters, but the ones I have looked at are much sparser with regard to lore than some other editions.

Let's look at orcs, one of those few I did look at. The 4e MM has 8 paragraphs of lore. The 5e MM has like 23 paragraphs of lore, and they are mostly longer paragraphs than the 8 in the 4e MM. The 3e MM has 9 paragraphs, so on par with 4e. The 2e MM has like 16, and includes orc ecology.

2e and 5e blow the 4e lore on orcs out of the water. Now maybe I've just been unlucky and many other creatures have a dozen plus paragraphs of lore in the 4e MM, which is why I said "It seems like..." instead of making a claim about the edition as a whole.
 

I am now quite curious about the origin of marilith tacticians. Anyone happen to know if they were mentioned in the 1E Manual of the Planes to any significant extent? I wouldn't be surprised if it started in some one-off adventure or video game.
 

They were painted as tactical geniuses in the 3.5e MM, at least. For example, fluff text indicated that they "are generals and tacticians, often rivaling balors in sheer brilliance and cunning"; that they "thrive on grand strategy and army level tactics"; and so forth.

eta: Similar verbiage is found in PF1e: "The leaders of Abyssal hordes and queens of Abyssal nations, the dreaded mariliths serve demon lords as governesses, advisors, and even lovers, yet their brilliance as tacticians makes them most sought after as generals and commanders of armies."

eta: links
I didn't even think to look at 3e and went straight to 2e. The 3e lore says that they are generals and tacticians and often rival the balors in tactical brilliance. Marliths had an 18 int and balors a 24, so their tactical ability hits several intelligence points above their actual intelligence, making them tactical geniuses in my book.
 

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