D&D General Why Aren’t the strongest Outsiders Closer in CR?

[Demetrios1453]

Didn’t think about it until i saw this, but are the animal lords supposed to replace Talsid and his companions?

No, the Planescape set confirms that the guardinals are from Elysium, while the 2025 MM confirms the animal lords are from the Beastlands, which is how it's been since both were introduced in 2e. So they're being kept in their separate boxes (in which the Cat Lord has presumably made himself very comfortable).

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Surprising. From what i figured they were akin to demigods/lesser deities since some place them as the creators of demons/yugoloths

A comparison from 2e

 

[Incenjucar]

My general impression in the 2E era is that the tanar'ri were generally stronger to make up for their less refined tactics compared to baatezu.

More of the threat was from the situation than raw power.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

My general impression in the 2E era is that the tanar'ri were generally stronger to make up for their less refined tactics compared to baatezu.

More of the threat was from the situation than raw power.

Well in 2e the Baernaloth was also the weakest of the Greater Yugoloths.

 

[Voadam]

There is a philosophy that has been around forever that "the bad guys must be stronger then the good guys to give the characters foes to fight."

The story idea is, at least, to have most good beings always need to ask for help from the "powerful characters" to make a good story.

You see it pop up from time to time...depending on the writers, editors or such at the time.

Except in D&D this is fairly subverted. Top tier angels (planetars and solars) are generally more powerful throughout editions since 1e than top tier fiends like balors and pit fiends.

Evil has the advantage in numbers with the hordes of the Abyss and the legions of Hell but at the Top Good is stronger than Evil. Good cannot deal with all of Evil and cannot be everywhere and needs to defend heaven too so heroes still needed, narratively.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

True, I just think each group should have a high CR entry

Well, at least in Golarion, there are several more types of guardinals, though there they use a Greek-derived term, "agathion" (more or less, a "good spirit"). Draconals are the mightiest of the agathions, being somewhat more Asian-dragon coded than Western-dragon coded, e.g. they're good but have mostly chromatic colors (green, yellow, red, black, white), they're often depicted as kind of naga-shaped (torso, arms, and wings, but may or may not have legs), etc. Color doesn't affect a draconal's CR; they're all CR 20 in PF1e.

So maybe it's just that the guardinals were not given the higher-CR options?

 

[AlViking]

The form fiends take is a reflection of the power they've gained, the power they have is not based on what they are. A Pit Fiend is what they are because they've clawed their way to the top of the pile gaining power along the way but they started out as a lowly Lemure.

 

[Incenjucar]

Well in 2e the Baernaloth was also the weakest of the Greater Yugoloths.

Yeah, they were dangerous because of what they knew more than what they could do in a fight.

 

[dave2008]

There is a philosophy that has been around forever that "the bad guys must be stronger then the good guys to give the characters foes to fight."

That may be a philosophy, buy it is not the traditional D&D one. Celestials and good aligned creatures were almost always more powerful than their evil counterparts during the TSR era (look at metallic vs chromatic or angels vs devils in the 1e MM1 & MM2). The idea was the more powerful good creatures fend off the much more numerous evil creatures.

 

[dave2008]

Didn’t think about it until i saw this, but are the animal lords supposed to replace Talsid and his companions?

Not likely, animal lords have been around since 1e and have always been separate from Talisid and his companions.