D&D General No One Reads Conan Now -- So What Are They Reading?

[Imaro]

2) People can disagree about whether something is problematic. I don't think that it makes someone problematic because they don't find something to be so (they just have a different interpretation of the text than you). This is the part of the conversation that generally bothers me: people insisting that other agree with their degree of being offended by something

No, hard disagree... there are objectively problematic things (which you can choose to be offended by or not though that doesnt make thrm non-problematic) and someone's inability to accept that often, at least for me, tells me what type of person they are.

 

[Bedrockgames]

No, hard disagree... there are objectively problematic things (which you've can choose to be offended by or not though that doesnt make thrm non-problematic)

I don't think the world is this black and white. There are objectively bad things in the world. But art and text are hugely subjective. Especially if we are talking about art where the direct message isn't explicit but we are trying to deduce the author's feelings through their use of tropes. Obviously if someone is writing a racist diatribe, that is pretty clear, but a lot of what we end up discussing can be more subtle than that sort of thing.

and someone's inability to accept that often, at least for me, tells me what type of person they are.

I really hope you will reconsider using this as a measure of who people are. I very much doubt you are getting an accurate reading on anyone by measuring their reactions to tropes in media (or posts on a forum for that matter). Really what I think you are measuring is a person's ability to communicate. You might be talking to someone who is the most generous, kind, loving and empathetic person in the world, but they just happen to enjoy something you find problematic (and they may not be great at defending their position).

 

[overgeeked]

No, hard disagree... there are objectively problematic things (which you've can choose to be offended by or not though that doesnt make thrm non-problematic) and someone's inability to accept that often, at least for me, tells me what type of person they are.

Exactly. If I were to quote some parts of Robert E. Howard’s Conan stories on here, I’d be banned for posting racist comments. If people refuse to acknowledge there’s racism in stories that objectively feature racism, that says more about them and their values than anything else.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Goddamn what happened in the 2010s that so many authors just stopped writing really cool series for seemingly unrelated reasons.

Did they stop writing them or did the publishers stop publishing them?

 

[Imaro]

I don't think the world is this black and white. There are objectively bad things in the world. But art and text are hugely subjective. Especially if we are talking about art where the direct message isn't explicit but we are trying to deduce the author's feelings through their use of tropes. Obviously if someone is writing a racist diatribe, that is pretty clear, but a lot of what we end up discussing can be more subtle than that sort of thing.



I really hope you will reconsider using this as a measure of who people are. I very much doubt you are getting an accurate reading on anyone by measuring their reactions to tropes in media (or posts on a forum for that matter). Really what I think you are measuring is a person's ability to communicate. You might be talking to someone who is the most generous, kind, loving and empathetic person in the world, but they just happen to enjoy something you find problematic (and they may not be great at defending their position).

If you tell me racism isn't problematic...You're someone with values I have no interest in understanding or excusing. It was problematic back then (just ask the majority of blaclk people living then) but accepted by the majority of those in power and its problematic now.There is no understanding that position because that position is literally anathema to who I am and discounts me as a human being... There's no reconciling that and you claiming its all perspective or subjective is frankly... insulting.

 

[overgeeked]

If you tell me racism isn't problematic...You're someone with values I have no interest in understanding or excusing. It was problematic back then (just ask the majority of blaclk people living then) but accepted by the majority of those in power and its problematic now.There is no understanding your position because your position is literally anathema to who I am and discounts me as a human being... There's no reconciling that and you claiming its all perspective or subjective is frankly... insulting.

Just so you know, that poster is one of the publishers of RPGPundit’s stuff.

 

[Imaro]

Just so you know, that poster is one of the publishers of RPGPundit’s stuff.

Figures...smh.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

I'm not trying to defend Howard or Lovecraft's world views, but what they offer is short fiction that isn't a 900 page Brandon Sanderson epic. It's episodic and a good basis in pacing for a gaming adventure.
I've been unable to find contemporary and less problematic writers who can do the same thing.
Even a novel-length work that isn't a part of a 3000 page epic that I can read in a weekend would be preferable.
Open to your suggestions.

I just don't want to read these giant tomes of fiction anymore. So many of them to me feel like they could've had 100-300 pages trimmed off to make them better works. I would posit that had GRRM written A Song of Ice and Fire series as, say, a dozen 300-page novels, he would not have ended up stuck with so much time in between novels, let alone the ever-widening gulf between the last published book and now.

I find myself myself having good luck with modern novellas. Tor Books has some really solid novellas in various flavors of fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. Seanan McGuire's Wayward Children series, for example.

Yeah. It’s not even debatable in good faith. If you have the eyes or ears to have consumed a Robert E. Howard Conan story, you’ve encountered racism. It’s like questioning whether H. P. Lovecraft was racist. Yes, he was. Full stop. No, not “so was everyone else at the time” levels of racism. Lovecraft was so racist even other racists told him he was taking it too far and should relax a little. REH wasn’t as racist as Lovecraft, but REH was still pretty damned racist and it clearly shows through his work.

There are a lot of complicated things about the intersection of influential fiction, racism, and mental illness (as both REH and HPL would've most likely been diagnosed as dealing with today). But to argue that racism does not infiltrate their fiction in varying degrees is just counterfactual.

 

[MGibster]

I just don't want to read these giant tomes of fiction anymore. So many of them to me feel like they could've had 100-300 pages trimmed off to make them better works. I would posit that had GRRM written A Song of Ice and Fire series as, say, a dozen 300-page novels, he would not have ended up stuck with so much time in between novels, let alone the ever-widening gulf between the last published book and now.

I read Treasure Island for the first time, oh, I guess it's been about twenty years now, and I was struck by just how much Stevenson was able to fit into a relatively short story. He was originally writing in serial format for a magazine, but compared to the bloat I was used to reading it was a breath of fresh air.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Just so you know, that poster is one of the publishers of RPGPundit’s stuff.

Yes you point this out a lot: and you’ve frequently accused me of being Pundit (even after being told that isn’t at all the case). I’ve given my take many times and don’t feel like repeating myself but I will say I think this kind of guilt by association is pernicious, but more importantly in your case highly selective.

I don’t even publish other peoples works any more. I consider Pundit a friend but we don’t have the same politics (but on a lot of cultural issues around gaming, like how concerned we should be about things being problematic, he and I often agree).

If you tell me racism isn't problematic...You're someone with values I have no interest in understanding or excusing. It was problematic back then (just ask the majority of blaclk people living then) but accepted by the majority of those in power and its problematic now.There is no understanding that position because that position is literally anathema to who I am and discounts me as a human being... There's no reconciling that and you claiming its all perspective or subjective is frankly... insulting.

I think everyone agrees racism is a problem. But where people are disagreeing is on whether a given thing is racist, at what point it becomes racist, etc. I just think this kind of black and white approach to something like what media people like, starts to feel like an inquisition after a while. Also this approach, what you are advocating here and what @overgeeked demonstrates above, does very little to advances the causes you are discussing. If anything it drives people further from the ideas you want them to embrace and creates greater resentment