D&D (2024) D&D Marilith Is Far More Bestial In 2025

The new 2025 Monster Manual has all-new art, and one major change is the depiction of the marilith. Up until now, the marilith has been depicted as a six-armed humanish female from the waist up; while in the 2025 book, the picture is far more bestial in nature.

Not only is the imagery more demonic, it also features the creature in action, simultaneously beheading, stabbing, and entwining its foes with its six arms and snake-like tail.

Left 2025 Marilith / Right 2014 Marilith​

 

[Maxperson]

Doing a bit of digging. Descent into Avernus, in the description of Fort Knucklebone Page 80 states:



So, no, demons don't have to eat, drink or sleep.

See, this is what I mean by actual citations. Instead of half remembered modules and lore from thirty or forty years ago and a specific setting.

I provided citations from the core books that show that the shadow demons are the ones who don't require those things, as well as show that demons eat.

An adventure that is not rules and gets it wrong doesn't counter core book citations.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, and since we're all about the actual lore of the game, I would point people to page 46 of the 2014 Monster Manual where it defines Demons:



So, can we please drop the whole notion that demons have any sort of biology?

Why would being spawned from the plane, and ALSO from mortals in that citation, mean that there is no biology? You can be spawned with functioning biology. That citation does not counter the ones I cited that show that demons eat, breathe and sleep if they aren't shadow demons.

 

[Hussar]

I provided citations from the core books that show that the shadow demons are the ones who don't require those things, as well as show that demons eat.

An adventure that is not rules and gets it wrong doesn't counter core book citations.

ROTFLMAO.

Weren't you the one insisting that we take an unnamed module that shows that demons and devils can have babies as lore? You don't see the irony here at all?

See, the reason I push back against this so hard is because this is the way it always goes. WotC does something creative or different. Someone doesn't like the change, but, instead of simply saying, "Oh, I don't like that." they insist that the change is bad. And then they bring out canon club and start beating people about the head and shoulders, all the while crying about how WotC hates lore, don't care about the game and are wrong to change things.

Now, lore and canon ONLY applies when someone doesn't like the change. It's so disingenuous. It's such a bad faith argument. Change lore and like the change? Oh, no problems. Lore and canon don't matter at all. Make a change we don't like for whatever reason? Oh hell no. Lore must be adhered to. We'll drag up obscure bits of canon from thirty years ago or more in order to "prove" that the changes are bad.

It's so frustrating.

 

[Maxperson]

ROTFLMAO.

Weren't you the one insisting that we take an unnamed module that shows that demons and devils can have babies as lore? You don't see the irony here at all

See, the reason I push back against this so hard is because this is the way it always goes. WotC does something creative or different. Someone doesn't like the change, but, instead of simply saying, "Oh, I don't like that." they insist that the change is bad. And then they bring out canon club and start beating people about the head and shoulders, all the while crying about how WotC hates lore, don't care about the game and are wrong to change things.

Now, lore and canon ONLY applies when someone doesn't like the change. It's so disingenuous. It's such a bad faith argument. Change lore and like the change? Oh, no problems. Lore and canon don't matter at all. Make a change we don't like for whatever reason? Oh hell no. Lore must be adhered to. We'll drag up obscure bits of canon from thirty years ago or more in order to "prove" that the changes are bad.

It's so frustrating.

Not really. I said lore, not rules. The rules are in the core books. Adventures can have some lore, but not rules, and if the lore in adventures contradicts the lore in the core books, the adventure is automatically wrong.

The core books show that demons other than shadow demons need to eat, breathe and sleep. They can also mate. The lore in the adventure I'm talking about does not contradict that lore. On the other hand, the lore you are looking at does contradict the lore in the core books, so it is wrong.

I didn't say that lore was bad. I said it's wrong in the sense that it contradicts the default core lore. If you like it, adopt it for your game. Right now I'm discussing the default state of fiends in the game, not home brew lore like that adventure has.

I alter lore all the time for creatures in my game. I'm not here claiming that my changes are the way those creatures are, though. They are only that way in my game.

You're reading more into what I'm saying than is there. You'd be less frustrated if you didn't do that. I never said anything about the alternative lore that you found being bad.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, and one last thing.

The argument was that Demons need gender because demons breed. That is not true. Demons don't breed. At least, not with other demons. Demons are spawned by the Abyss or cursed by gods. At no point are there little baby demons or pregnant demons wandering around. Now, as @Maxperson has so clearly stated that a module cannot be considered as canon if it is countered by the rules, I'm going to say that no, demons have no biological need for gender.

As to whether they actually eat or drink or have other biological functions, well, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. It's not really relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh, and one last thing.

The argument was that Demons need gender because demons breed. That is not true. Demons don't breed. At least, not with other demons. Demons are spawned by the Abyss or cursed by gods. At no point are there little baby demons or pregnant demons wandering around. Now, as @Maxperson has so clearly stated that a module cannot be considered as canon if it is countered by the rules, I'm going to say that no, demons have no biological need for gender.

As to whether they actually eat or drink or have other biological functions, well, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. It's not really relevant to the discussion at hand.

What about that 2e lore that was posted a few pages ago that showed that demons can change genders? And the 2e lore that said that demons can reproduce amongs themselves? I haven't seen any lore to contradict that, and the fact that they can have children with mortals means that they have the biology necessary to have kids.

The male demons have the biology to impregnate others. The female demons have the biology to be impregnated and give birth. What reason is there for you to think that they have the biology for children with others, but not amongst themselves?

Also, succubi and incubi can have kids among themselves and they are lower planar fiends. Below is from the 5e MM.

"Succubi and incubi inhabit all of the Lower Planes, and the lascivious dark-winged fiends can be found in service to devils, demons, night hags, rakshasas, and yugoloths. Asmodeus, ruler of the Nine Hells, uses these fiends to tempt mortals to perform evil acts. The demon lord Graz'zt keeps succubi and incubi as advisers and consorts."

"Succubi and incubi can reproduce with one another to spawn more of their kind."

I also note that genies specifically state that they do not reproduce with their own kind, something demons and devils do not state.

 

[Hussar]

Succubi and incubi are not demons.

 

[Older Beholder]

Not to kink shame anyone, but how frequently are snake boobs and demon sex coming up in your games for either of these things to be an issue?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Not to kink shame anyone, but how frequently are snake boobs and demon sex coming up in your games for either of these things to be an issue?

So. Much.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not to kink shame anyone, but how frequently are snake boobs and demon sex coming up in your games for either of these things to be an issue?

Constantly ... wait, in game? Not that much, then.