how many of powerful beings and/or high-level characters do you think is appropriate in a typical fantasy world?

[Morrus]

Seven.

 

[Celebrim]

That last part describes LotR. Gandalf is the DM PC, who has a bunch of hirelings carry the cursed items, and be distractions or cannon fodder.

Frodo carries the ring because Gandalf can't, by his own confessionm do so. Gandalf says, "I can't, because I'd fail my saving throw." One could argue that Sam, Pippin, and Merry start out as henchmen, but if you are reading the book rather than watching the movie, it's clear Frodo is the protagonist. (Aragon is the deuteragonist, sharing equal time with Frodo after he's introduced but ultimately secondary to the plot.)

And the Balrog is a 8+8 HD monster.
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The Istari (incarnate Maia) were forbidden from direct conflict with Sauron and were to advise/counsel rather than be front-line blasters.

Are you trying to lecture me in basic Tolkien lore?

I suspect Gandalf was the "rogue" of the Istari, less wizard and more Arcane Trickster or maybe Bard.

Gandalf was the vassal of Varda Elentári and seems to have been her chief councilor and advisor - an angel of wisdom and light (in both real and metaphysical terms) in service of the archangel of wisdom and kindness and mercy. He seems to have stuck with the plan because of the five chosen he was the only one with the wisdom to do so, although that may not be fair to three of the five as it appears that their lords may have had ulterior motives. Oromë cared more for the "dark East" and its suffering people than any of the other Valar, and Yavanna always cared for plants more than people. And far seeing Mandos may have been prophetically looking ahead to events after the fall of Sauron. The fate of the Blue Wizards and the sum of their acts for good or ill is not something Tolkien fully develops, except that he does say that without their work unseen or and uncelebrated on in the east, the forces at Sauron's command would have been too great for the West to overcome. Their failing IMO and in Tolkien's limited comments on them seems to have been mostly that they were too proud to give up their task, and that they stayed to long in the East, unwilling to yield the fight and too sure of their importance in it.

But that speculation is unimportant to the major discussion, which is the nature of power in the third age, where a wraith is accounted a major power

Meaning Istari are "top tier" creatures, pretending to be lower CR, rather than actually being lower CR creatures. Given that balrogs are a corrupted form of Maia, that CR seems pretty high.

Here you should really read the essay, because you are walking right into the argument that it eviscerates.

There are Ring Wraiths, that can only be killed after being injured by specifically enchanted blades, who can pop up anywhere. Unkillable threats seem pretty high level.

Basic wraiths are 5D and can't be harmed without magic weapons. Why does it seem that they should be "pretty high level" just because you can't kill them without a +1 weapon, that almost no one has?

 

[Faolyn]

Uhm... wouldn't you end up with basically 25% of the entire population having class levels? That's quite a lot and not suitable for my preferences.

Logically, though, there's no reason why 25% or more of the population can't have at least a level or two in a class. Villages are going to have people going into dangerous places to hunt or gather or search for sheep that have wandered away from the flock. If they have to do this enough times, there's no reason they can't take a level of fighter or ranger. Towns and cities are going to have people who have to live by their wits and fast fingers who become rogues. There's always going to be lots of angry people who rely on physical violence to express that anger and become barbarians. There's plenty of people who are "called" to religion and so become clerics or druids. There's plenty of people who will do anything for power and become warlocks. Since D&D sorcerery is mostly bloodline-based, there's no reason why there won't be lots of sorcerers around. It's really only those classes that require a lot of dedication (paladins, monks, and wizards) that will be rare, and even then you can make a case for them being more common. I can easily see a quarter (or more) of the population having a level or two in a class.

I get why you may not want that for your particular setting, but the numbers are sensible.

 

[Piperken]

...Saruman broke the rules on power, which seems to make it a choice rather than an inherent limitation. Meaning Istari are "top tier" creatures, pretending to be lower CR, rather than actually being lower CR creatures. Given that balrogs are a corrupted form of Maia, that CR seems pretty high.

It's pretty clear that if Sauron's tower wasn't active, Gandalf and his hirelings could be zooming over the lands on the backs of giant eagles. As it is Gandalf has to schlep along on "the king of horses"...

As the Council convened by Elrond was in secret, the Company that is formed must move quickly, and unnoticed. Besides Sauron's Tower, the spies of the Enemy are many e.g. members of the Company have to hide from flocks of birds, orcs who hold different allegiances have to be deceived, the Company risks entering Lothlorien.

That doesn't include the fact the Ring the entire time, always seeks a means to return to its maker.

Use of magic on the level say, of ha, foolishly using a palantir, or what Gandalf was forced to use against the Balrog in Moria, is the equivalent of announcing, I am here.

 

[dragoner]

As many as one needs. If the name of the adventure is to slay the evil god, then one needs an evil god to slay.

 

[Li Shenron]

Logically, though, there's no reason why 25% or more of the population can't have at least a level or two in a class.

"Logically" the opposite is just as true. It's a game, not reality.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Are you trying to lecture me in basic Tolkien lore?

I'm stating basic lore because it's context in a thread not explicitly about Tolkein. This is about settings in general.

Here you should really read the essay, because you are walking right into the argument that it eviscerates.

The fact there are essays on it means there are disagreements on interpretation.

And when we are applying it to a kind of game that didn't exist until 20 years after the novel and doing so to a multitude of variations that themselves have a 50year lifespan, there are so many levels of interpretation.

I mean, you're using 5D and 8HD+8 notation, which is from a version of d&d that stopped being published 25 years ago and is now the province of OSR while I use the CR notation that has been used since 3e but has itself been revised repeatedly.

An 8D+8 1e Balor is a CR15 creature in 3e and CR19 in 5e.

OP didn't indicate their preferred system or edition. It could be OD&D, AD&D, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, 5e2014, or 5e2024, some 3rd party variant, like Parthfinder or OSR, or something different entirely like Runequest or Warhammer. About the only thing I assume they aren't using is MERP because they didn't mention Tolkein.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Uhm... wouldn't you end up with basically 25% of the entire population having class levels? That's quite a lot and not suitable for my preferences.

Welcome to preference. It's why I said earlier that there is no typical.

My preferences are Earthdawn, and of d&d editions it is 3e. Earthdawn doesn't link adepts' "circle" and power directly. And all the commoners who don't have Circles still have half-magic, which lets them listen to plants or feel how strong metal welds are or sense if bread is done without opening the oven.

In 3e '0-level" doesn't exist, everyone is at least a level 1 Commoner. Iirc, most small thorpes of under 100 people had a 7th level commoner.

So many variations...

 

[the Jester]

Well... the problem with this question is that I don't think there's any such thing as a 'typical' fantasy world or setting. I think the number of powerful individuals should vary according to the needs of that setting.

In some settings, there might be a fair number who manipulate things from behind the scenes. In others, the high level folks might be the explicit rulers of states, heads of mighty guilds, etc. In one setting, there might be dozens of demigod-level offspring of deities wandering the world. There could be one or more per city in a realm composed of city-states with god-king rulers; there could be only a handful in a world more grounded in realism.

In my game, there are few- and many of those who do exist are long-lived and ancient. But because those folks are long-lived and ancient, there could be many. So, as many as needed?

My assumption is that the powerful individuals are spread throughout the world and are either well-known or well-hidden. I don't have a specific number in mind, but my rule of thumb is, if you need to be raised from the dead, teleported, etc, you almost certainly need to find a pc who can do it. But my setting is recovering from a series of apocalyptic events that have hit it over the last roughly century, which eliminated most of the powerful folks who weren't hidden away (or on other planes- but I think including other planes, which includes gods, arch-devils, etc, is outside of the scope of the OP's question).

 

[bloodtide]

See, I disagree with the assumption here. Faerun is nothing like a typical fantasy world.

True

This extends to every facet of Faerun. The Faerun retired adventurer running a bar in a small town is a 10th level Lord who would be a big deal in any other setting but Faerun. Armies in Faerun aren't composed of 0th or even 1st level characters with a smattering of higher-level leaders, but 3rd, 4th or even 5th level characters led by proportionately higher-level characters. Everything is exaggeratedly powerful beyond any fiction really prior to that point, and most fantasy fiction in general.

And the above is just the tip of the iceberg. More then a couple taverns or shops have something like great wyrm dragon 30th level sorcerers owning them. So when a someone started trouble they could just casually freeze the person in time. The average magic shop had a iron golem for protection. And the average place had lots of magical wards that did things like whirling force weapons and endless lightning bolts.

By contrast, speaking as someone who has read the Lord of the Rings 18 times, I think "Gandalf is a 5th level Magic-User" still holds up pretty well. It might not be entirely true, but it's certainly truer than "Gandalf is a 24th level Magic-User" or something of that sort. Gandalf is a unique Agathion with 7+7 HD and the ability to cast spells as a 6th level M-U is probably the limits of his power, but in Faerun terms this isn't a mover or shaker in world affairs but a pathetic sidekick that could get his butt handed to him by the average tavern drunk.

True

Uhm... wouldn't you end up with basically 25% of the entire population having class levels? That's quite a lot and not suitable for my preferences.

Yes. Back in 1/2E about 25% of everyone had class levels. In general, anyone who was not a commoner type had class levels. Or "anyone the PCs might encounter".