GM fiat - an illustration


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So a double standard for those on your side of the debate vs. those not. 🤷‍♂️

No double standard. It has nothing to do with sides!

I’m certain @pemerton’s games aren’t railroads.

I’m not certain about @bloodtide’s, though he’s described them as such, so I'm inclined to believe him.

And as I’ve said a bunch of times now… if you’re not concerned about similarities between your game and his, that’s all that matters. You can just drop it… I won’t bring it up again. No need to try and portray me as applying double standards or whatever.
 

In math we have proven that if those axioms are true that there are an infinite number of prime numbers. Us proving that didn’t create prime numbers out of the void. It just revealed their existence.
This is most certainly not a position held universally by mathematicians, let alone philosophers. I for one am highly skeptical of this! I am more of the camp which believe that mathematics is an invention of mankind, though one which takes a particular form due to a desire for utility. I don't think we can really answer the question meaningfully beyond that. I would love to talk to some true aliens, minds which developed without reference to any of our culture.
 

Somebody thought up prime numbers, so every specific prime number is just a derivation of that "pre-authorship".
But is not pre-authored!

And of course we can construct more complex derivations that illustrate the point - my maths is not all that strong, but an example I also gave upthread was the factors of the number that is one less that the smallest prime number greater than <insert big number here>. And obviously even within the realm of what is, broadly, arithmetic, more complex derivations are possible, and that's before we get to theoretical generalisations (eg about general properties of prime numbers).

Mathematical inference rules have turned out to be amazingly powerful!
 

But if you are bringing new information into the mystery in order to solve it, you aren't solving in the sense of going around, investigating, asking questions and actually solving a mystery that really was established in a way that is like how a real mystery operates.

See, this is the fundamental category error. There is no "new information" or "old information". There is only the construct of the in-fiction condition state.

If the condition state of "the mystery" made up by the GM six months ago---the literal definition of fiat, something that happens in the game world because the GM says so---is suddenly found to have a more resonant, compelling, character driven element in the moment of play, the GM is supposed to ignore it for the "greater good of the living world"?

The GM is somehow honor bound to keep the thing they totally made up six months ago, even though it's objectively worse for the fun of the group than simply retroactively making up something else that fits the revised narrative?

This is the thing I've come to reject. This attitude ingrained into trad GM culture that it's literally better to make the game worse and less fun for the players because the demands of the living world require it.

More to the point, what are the players' true character intentions for solving the mystery? It's surely more than a pat on the back and a wink wink "Well done!" from their GM.
 
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I think, in this case, the point of contention has become the concept of 'solve', which for one of you is being defined as something like "the players deduced the solution to the crime" whereas the other is defining it as something like "the players roleplayed solving a crime". Neither of these is incorrect in some sense, but they don't necessarily describe the same thing.
By "solve" I mean something like, arrive at an answer under constraints - so the contrast is with invent, make up, choose, etc.

The claim that solving in this sense requires pre-authorship is, in my view, mistaken. Two domains of reasoning (mathematics, and the less-widely known domain of legal reasoning) illustrated why.

I've explained, over multiples posts, where the constraints can come from in RPGing. One possibility is that the come from the GM's pre-authored backstory (= "notes"). But that is not the only possibility.
 


In math we have proven that if those axioms are true that there are an infinite number of prime numbers. Us proving that didn’t create prime numbers out of the void. It just revealed their existence.
Sure. But no one authored them. (As to whether they "exist" or were "created", that's an issue of discussion in philosophy of mathematics. But the point is that there are robust inference rules that permit identifying them.)
 

But humor me. What does it mean to actually solve it?
To arrive at the correct conclusion, through examining the evidence, identifying what is valid and accurate, and then applying a mixture of deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning, filtering out who could or could not have committed the crime. If they successfully solve it, then that mixture of those reasoning methods will point them to the person who "really did" do the thing.

At least for me, to "actually solve [a mystery]", there needs to be an answer independent of any desires, preferences, or creations of the people doing the solving. A riddle without an answer isn't a riddle, it's a rhetorical question that someone might take as non-rhetorical. If a "puzzle" lacks a singular solution, it isn't really a puzzle anymore, and is instead a toy (or possibly a game). At the center of every mystery is exactly that, a puzzle we must pursue by putting the pieces together. To have a mystery continuously shaped by player declarations, even if those declarations follow rules, would be like having a jigsaw puzzle where the pieces don't actually fit into a pattern until we decide they fit into a pattern, and then all of a sudden that was the pattern that was "always" there.

It is very important, here, that the conclusion is and always was correct. To have a final result that did not have any correct answer until after we declared it is a serious problem for "actually solv[ing]" it. Whether it was declared collaboratively or not is irrelevant; a Borromean linkage is still a linkage even if no two rings are linked to each other.

Also, I'm not actually saying it has to be foreknown. In a Clue game, nobody knows who the real killer is, but there is in fact a real killer. It isn't decided by anyone (it's done with cards put into sleeves, at least in the versions I played as a child), but it is in fact something specific: a specific weapon, a specific room, a specific killer. The players can acquire evidence, mostly in the negative (observing what cards it couldn't be, by finding them through play) in order to narrow down what it therefore must be. There is no possibility in this context that someone could--to quote the Cthulhu Dark rules--"think...it more interesting if you failed". There can be no sudden swerve from solving mystery A to solving mystery B and leaving mystery A as a dangling thread. (Because yes, I did actually read both the Cthulhu Dark rules and the linked play-summary thereof.)

For instance:

The wealthy industrialist, Victor Harrow, is found dead in his locked study, shot once in the chest. There were four people in the house that night: his estranged daughter Clara, his business partner Lewis Grant, the family maid Sofia, and the private investigator Harrow had hired the week before, named Mason Drake. Unknown to the players, the truth is as follows: Lewis Grant killed Harrow because he discovered Harrow was planning to cut him out of the company. Grant entered the study using a spare key he had secretly copied, shot Harrow during an argument, wiped his prints, and left through the servants’ entrance unnoticed. Clara heard the shot but assumed her father had taken his own life. Sofia found the body but panicked and ran without alerting anyone. Mason Drake was outside on a phone call at the time of the murder.

There are fingerprints on the copied key hidden in Grant’s coat pocket. There are financial papers in Harrow’s desk showing he was planning to disinherit Grant. Grant’s shoes have traces of mud from the servants’ entrance path. Sofia can be found later and will nervously reveal that she saw Grant leave through the side door.

All of this is sitting in the GM’s notes, pre-written.

What does it mean to actually solve it?
The PCs examine the area, try to find as much evidence as they can, try to analyze that evidence as effectively as they can, and then, on the basis of their analysis (which may not be correct!), try to determine the correct answer to the mystery. Since there is a fact of the matter--here, Grant really was the killer all along, no matter what collaborations or contributions a person may have put in, regardless of the source e.g. dice-slinging or card-drawing or GM-authoring or whatever--the players can truly be right or wrong (or right about some things and wrong about others). So, for example, the players might correctly name Lewis Grant the killer (and presumably extract a confession from him in front of police, Poirot-style), without ever locating the murder weapon. Or they might fail, and name Sofia the killer because they missed the key and mud on his shoes, but correctly determined that Sofia had seen the body and failed to report it. Or they could just completely fail to solve it at all.

The "ideal" solve, the whole kit and caboodle, would be more or less as a typical mystery-novel solution works, where the detective lays out the chain of events, specifies the pieces of evidence which narrowed it down to that result and only that result, and conclusively demonstrates Grant's guilt before the police, ensuring that he is duly convicted in a court of law by a jury of his peers etc. etc. and all the innocent suspects go free.
 
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