GM fiat - an illustration

I guess? I mean, a lot of the initial threats are going to follow-on from the world you've defined; the backgrounds and conflicts of various characters; "I wonder" about the world - and while you may be resolving them as conflicts, that doesnt mean that there isn't some degree of like, finding about this apocalyptia. How'd Dremmer get those weird ass guns? Whoa, there's people roaming around in mech-suits? What are psychic powers even? I guess with stuff like Fallout in my mind - I can see how in exploring the world to deal with threats or find enough food to eat or tackle afflictions & etc you could be exploring a degree of uh "backstory." But I haven't played enough AW that I'll take your word for it.

As I noted in edit though, Stonetop has setting exploration as a key component of very solid PBTA play. (I really wonder what Baker would say about it since he'd mentioned back in 2023 that he hand't seen much in the way of an exploration game show up in PBTA space - but unlike his example it still foregrounds relationship conflict both between PCs and with their settlement)

Well there's some stuff that I wonder about but it's going to mostly build out a character, not lead to much consequential revelation. There's no real exploration going on in my games (any of them). I think almost all the good stuff happens after backstory reveals, so I try to get it out the way.

Yeah I've read some very old version of stonetop and notice it was doing exploration in a more structured way.
 

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A game like mine, where the real players must solve real mysteries for real is very different then your Play Around Process game.

Just to point out a way or two:

1.Solving a real mystery for real is hard. Even for an easy mystery. Playing around mechanically in a game is easy.

2.Not everyone can do it. You need to have a mix of intelligence, knowledge, skills and a lot of other real world mental abilities. Not everyone can do it. Plenty of players are clueless. As opposed to the playing around way where anyone can roll some dice and "emerge" something.

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Right. Which isn’t how mysteries actually work. And which is no different than a play process that creates the solution.

No these two things are totally different. Forget the word real if that makes you feel better, but you surely can see that a game where we are creating the solution to the question of a crime that happened, versus one where the GM has that solution all figured out and we need to guess at is and solve the problem as we acquire clues are completely different. In one you are solving a question that can be objectively answered. In the other you are creating the solution. And again, just to be clear for the final time, nothing wrong with that. You probably get more in terms of surprise, drama, etc, doing it that way. And as I said in my original example I even was happily running Hillfolk kludged onto a trad system doing just that. But one thing that was abundantly clear to all of us when we played that adventure: it was different from one where there was an objective mystery to solve
 

Well, no, not like that then.

Oh, no, I'm a note heavy DM. Though I also have a great memory.

I count making the crime scene miniature for a murder a part of such prep. I know this goes beyond what many casual DMs are willing to do.

Not sure I appreciate your insinuation that you putting time into painting minutes or whatever makes you a more “hardcore” GM then somebody who doesn’t.

Can you share what makes your puzzle mystery significantly different then puzzle dungeon solving besides the framing? The description you provided of what you think a skilled player brings to that is spot on for what an OSR player needs to bring to get the most out of that system.
 

The same as when you “solved” the mystery by creating it. There’s a mystery in the fictional world of the game… and it’s “solved” by determining the culprit.

This is central to what you are missing. You are not solving anything if you are engineering the answer but there was never a pre-existing solution. Not in the sense of solving a mystery. I don't know to make this much more clear. But it is super obvious
 

Not sure I appreciate your insinuation that you putting time into painting minutes or whatever makes you a more “hardcore” GM then somebody who doesn’t.

Can you share what makes your puzzle mystery significantly different then puzzle dungeon solving besides the framing? The description you provided of what you think a skilled player brings to that is spot on for what an OSR player needs to bring to get the most out of that system.

I am pretty sure you are being trolled "Fear of Girls" style
 

I'm notCan you share what makes your puzzle mystery significantly different then puzzle dungeon solving besides the framing? The description you provided of what you think a skilled player brings to that is spot on for what an OSR player needs to bring to get the most out of that system.
I'm not really sure what is different as I'm not really sure what the puzzle dungeon is. I might have missed a post.

Finding hidden things in a dungeon is not exactly a "puzzle". There are dungeons where the rooms move like a puzzle.
 

I'm not really sure what is different as I'm not really sure what the puzzle dungeon is. I might have missed a post.

Finding hidden things in a dungeon is not exactly a "puzzle". There are dungeons where the rooms move like a puzzle.

Dungeon as puzzle to solve so you can get out with loot and alive. Like, having to go through procedures to figure out the danger, figure out secret doors, deadly traps, obtain hidden knowledge to unbind the demon in a room before treasure, and so forth. Investigating the world around you via question and answer, Landmark-Hidden-Secret levels of environmental descriptions, & etc.

OSR play.

If you changed "loot" to "answer to the mystery" and adjusted the framing to whatever you're doing a mystery in - isn't that pretty similar? If so, the way you avoid "Fiat" in principled dungeon play is by extensive notes via map&key, and predefined random tables, and an abundance of information for players to poke out.
 

Dungeon as puzzle to solve so you can get out with loot and alive. Like, having to go through procedures to figure out the danger, figure out secret doors, deadly traps, obtain hidden knowledge to unbind the demon in a room before treasure, and so forth. Investigating the world around you via question and answer, Landmark-Hidden-Secret levels of environmental descriptions, & etc.

OSR play.

If you changed "loot" to "answer to the mystery" and adjusted the framing to whatever you're doing a mystery in - isn't that pretty similar? If so, the way you avoid "Fiat" in principled dungeon play is by extensive notes via map&key, and predefined random tables, and an abundance of information for players to poke out.
Yes.

I would just call this Old School Role Playing.

Though you don't really "solve" a dungeon. A dungeon has a lot of small unknowns, that are not connected like a mystery. A mystery is much more a connected thing.

Though they are similar.

I love Randomness, but only true crazy randomness where nearly anything can happen. With lots of custom tables.
 

Yeah I don't see a big deal with miniatures or steam kettles (especially the later where you are talking to the player, not the character and the player needs to understand what images you are invoking). I am also not overly rigid about this. A lot of my campaigns are more 'first person' but I am not strictly policing it. The biggest walls would be around things like out of character knowledge. I use a lot of anachronistic language when I run games. That sort of thing doesn't worry me at all.
It is also worth pointing out, this is a preference issue. Some GMs find miniatures help, some don't. Me and Rob run games differently in this respect, I do strict theater of the mind with no miniatures. But they each have their advantages and disadvantages. Miniatures and maps make things clear, I am more okay than some GMs with things being more open to interpretation (though I do try to be as clear and precise as I can). And I will occasionally do things like sketch out an outline of what players see so they understand things like the terrain. One thing I do often do though is I will track player and NPC movement on paper so things aren't shifting around.
I believe the key takeaway from this is that there are multiple perspectives to consider. Going back to the example of art, while we have our brushes, paints, and canvas, there are fundamental techniques for using them. What it amounts to the end is a toolkit from which we assemble the particular way we make our painting. Even artists nominally part of the same school, like the Impressionists, all have their own unique techniques alongside the ones that are shared in common.

With tabletop roleplaying, from talking with you, we share some things in common, but like you said, you have your own unique mix of techniques and goals that contrast with mine.

Just as a personal comment, Rob's sandbox games and his mysteries are very good (I also had a chance to run Scourge of the Demon Wolf a few years back and it is right up my alley).
I appreciate the compliment and the shout out.

But I also played in one of his middle earth sessions (which was a little different in style and that was great too).
So the trick there was the excellent presentation of Middle Earth in the One Ring/Adventure in Middle Earth RPG. My view is that the pedal hits the metal for any setting, and how characters and creatures are roleplayed. While I read Tolkien's books multiple times, and knew the history well, I never felt I understood enough why different characters acted the way they did. What were the deep cultural reasons that could make what I've been calling a plausible extrapolation to roleplay other characters that would feel like they are from Middle Earth. But the One Ring/AiME laid it all out in a way that I finally got it, and as a result, I was able to run successful Middle Earth campaigns and sessions like the one you experienced.


Rob's great at getting into character too (I on the other hand am rather dry in my delivery, and not much of an enthusiastic actor).
Not everybody wants to do the funny voices (acting) even if they have the ability. This is supposed to be a hobby we enjoy, so do what's best for you!

On mysteries in general a lot of this is really going to pivot on the system too. Just as an example if you are using a game like Gumshoe, that can still do the objective mystery, but it is also more structured around scenes. I ran a fun investigation using the early version of that system, ecoterrorist and it was a blast. That system will be different than the system I normally use to run mysteries but it still does what I am talking about. So this is one of the reasons I think getting into the details of play isn't as important as objective backstory simply existing
So funny story about Gumshoe, I played a campaign with my friend Tim of Gothridge Manor and he did a really good job with the system. What impressed me was its underlying philosophy about mysteries. It wasn't about whether the characters would find the clues, but rather about how they would find the clues. And what they do with the information afterwards.

So that got me thinking about skills, along with my experiences with supporting the software and hardware of the metal cutting machines the company I work for builds. It occurred to me that people generally don't fail at a skilled task once they are beyond a certain skill level for that task. Most times that I saw a real-world failure that wasn't attributed to carelessness the individual was short on time, resources, or didn't have the right equipment.

For example, several of the metal cutting devices we sell for the machines are rated to cut up to a certain thickness. However, that maximum thickness is often right at the edge that the cutter can do reliably. So the operator has to be far more careful in setting up the cutting equipment to get a nice, clean cut. Even then, it takes several tries after several failed "skill rolls," so to speak, before the right combination of speed and parameters is found.

So I started applying what I called the Gumshoe principle to how I handled skills regardless of system. And it worked out, the result felt more organic to what the characters can do. Eventually, I refined my ideas and wrote them up in my Basic Rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG>

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I got asked about it a lot, so I posted the chapter as a free download.
 

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