GM fiat - an illustration

Whether it's good GMing or not, if something has a real objective existence it cannot be unexisted by an act of thought. I think again this comes down to 'the GM's notes' being given an artificial sense of gravitas by using language that invokes some kind of simulated world.

No because I just said it doesn't objectively exist in reality. The point is you have a setting and you are creating things with the intent of having them be objective features of the setting. So there is a distinction one can make between things that have objective weight in a setting and things that don't. Also I have avoided calling it a simulated and avoided simulation. That is the language you guys use when talking about us. I never use that because I don't think it is a physics engine or an intricate model of a planet. I think you are making a game for a setting and you can take more objective approaches and less objective approaches (and neither approach is wrong, they are just different)
 

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On the Narnia thing, I just think "It exists in CS Lewis" notes is a very unsatisfying explanation. The idea of Narnia was in his mind, and the notes are more a reflection of what he was thinking about it. And once it entered the world, there was a broader, shared concept of Narnia.
So... an approximation of Narnia exists, we might say. A shared concept of it.

Similarly, the worlds we play in do not exist. An approximation exists in our notes and our shared concepts of them.
 

Objective pre-existing facts you can deduce -> real mystery. Not real in the sense that it is physically real, real in these sense that there are objective facts to be deduced. This is not hard concept to grasp, everyone actually gets what is meant by this even though that would not be the terminology they would personally use.
What are those "facts", other than things the GM has imagined, and (typically) written down?
 

Yeah, I think there isn't anything to be gained going forward on it. The point is blindingly true and I feel like this has just become a game of semantics
What is blindingly obvious to me is that some posters in this thread have played both traditional CoC and other sorts of approaches to mystery RPGing, and don't feel the force of your assertion that only traditional CoC involves "objectivity" and "reality".

The other thing that is obvious to me is that the "objective facts" cannot but be things the GM has imagined; which the players are then working out. But you refuse to accept that what the players are working out is the content of the GM's imagination.
 

I agree that they involve reasoning (any form of roleplay necessarily must). I do not agree that that reasoning is the kind of reasoning I would consider to be solving-a-mystery. It very much instead read as people collectively creating fiction about a mystery, constrained by the (relatively minimal) rules of a game to do so.
Why?

What difference does it make that were-hyenas are thought of two weeks in advance, as opposed to 30 (or so) minutes into the session when Randall (a PC) inspects documents on a desk in a study?

(And in this very thread, we have @Bedrockgames and @Maperson saying that the GM making up security camera footage on the spot is consistent with the "objectivity" and "reality".)
 


One might call those things that exist 'the books' or 'CS Lewis's notes' or 'the GM's notes'.

It is not the same as saying that Narnia exists.
Does Pegasus have feathers?

If you answer "no, because Pegasus isn't real", I'm fairly sure most people would see that as a severely and unnecessary pedantic answer. Yet by your argument here it is always 100% objectively wrong to say "Pegasus has feathers."

"Exist" can have different meanings in different senses. "The Chronicles of Narnia" exist as a book series in our universe, as material objects we can interact with. "Narnia" does not (much to my chagrin) exist as a material location we could interact with. "Narnia" exists as a parallel world to that of Digory Kirke, Polly, the Pevensie children, etc.

But we can make similar statements about all sorts of things. Does the law of non-contradiction exist as a material object we could interact with? I don't think anyone here would say it does. And yet I don't think anyone here would argue that that means it absolutely does not, in any conceivable way, exist at all whatsoever. Does "red" exist? Well, things that emit or reflect light of certain frequencies exist, but does red exist, itself? Not materially, not in absence of the aforementioned emission or reflection, but understood as an abstraction, a property shared by many objects, I don't think anyone here would argue that "red" does not at all exist in any way whatsoever. It just doesn't exist in the way my hands exist (setting aside extreme skepticism as G.E. Moore did).

So, yes. You are correct that these things do not have tangible, material existence. They are not objects we could move around with our hands. They are not sounds we could hear with our ears. They are not sights we can see with our eyes.

Is that the same as saying that they absolutely do not exist at all, whatsoever, in any sense? I hope I have shown above that no, it is not the same as saying that.

Ultimately, this is why I was (and have been) using phrases like "the fact of the matter" and the like. I want there to be facts that can be discovered, not just an ever-growing body of fiction created by my own hands. I see a fundamental difference between myself creating fictional truths within a fictional space, and myself discovering truths and then piecing them together (by abductive, inductive, or deductive reasoning) to determine something that is true regardless of what I or anyone else think about the matter. The latter is, as far as I'm concerned, functionally equivalent to an IRL scientist investigating a question they find interesting, or a logician applying the rigorous and extremely strict rules of logic to process a given claim, or a mathematician proving a new statement solely on the basis of the rigid rules of arithmetic without inserting any new axioms or the like.

When one is instead creating fiction, even when guided by well-structured and wisely-written rules, one is not bound only by things beyond one's control. One is allowed to invent whatever is interesting, or exciting, or unexpected, just so long as none of that outright negates what is known to be true. But there are many many ways to undercut what was merely thought to be "known" when it wasn't truly known. Hence why I have so often mentioned the issue of false clues. I have never seen anyone here show me how the rules of Cthulhu Dark or Apocalypse World or anything else would prevent someone (player or GM) from creating new fiction that functionally invalidates old information by "revealing" that it was a false clue all along and the real situation was something else entirely. Such a thing has even been explicitly said, in this thread, as a common part of mystery fiction and thus entirely appropriate as a move someone could make (player or GM alike, assuming it conforms to the rules). But that very admission is saying there is no fact of the matter: there is simply our creation of new fiction in whatever directions are interesting. The rules don't forbid it, and the fiction cannot (indeed, these posters claim should not) limit it.
 

What is blindingly obvious to me is that some posters in this thread have played both traditional CoC and other sorts of approaches to mystery RPGing, and don't feel the force of your assertion that only traditional CoC involves "objectivity" and "reality".

This is getting very tiresome Pemerton because you keep twisting what we say or taking some stray strand of thought while ignoring fifty other things we said on the issue. 1) I am not saying only trad play can produce mysteries the players are actually solving. 2) I have played both traditional CoC and other approaches. One of the other approaches didn't produce an objective mystery to solve. This was a comment about that approach (not yours: I don't really care about what you play and whether it produces objective mysteries or not). People chimed in with remarks and examples that didn't look like objective mystery solving to me and others so we said what we thought about those examples (you posted a lengthy example I said I couldn't comment on because I found it too long to read over a game play debate)
 

Why?

What difference does it make that were-hyenas are thought of two weeks in advance, as opposed to 30 (or so) minutes into the session when Randall (a PC) inspects documents on a desk in a study?
See my previous post, where I lay out my issue with this process. It is creating fiction, but by the nature of that fiction it is far, far too unrestrained.

(And in this very thread, we have @Bedrockgames and @Maperson saying that the GM making up security camera footage on the spot is consistent with the "objectivity" and "reality".)
I don't accept that any more than I accept the above. Unless the DM is open and honest about having neglected something they shouldn't have (so that the players can account for the discrepancy and address any issues that might come out from it), this is a flaw as well.

And, again, I'm not asking for GM pre-authorship. I'm asking for there to be some answer to the core question of the mystery. It can come from any source (though random assignment and GM notes are of course the two main routes). But when it is perfectly consistent with both the rules and the fiction to say "aha! We thought the Countess was the murderer, but it was actually the butler all along!"—a thing others have definitely said in this thread, and IIRC you have as well—then I simply cannot see this as solving a mystery. It is, instead, collaborative rules-bound creation of a mystery story.
 

Is saying that one style of play has an objective truth to it and another does not meant to be value-neutral?
That isn't the language I would use because when you say "has an objective truth to it" that implies more than what I am talking about. But yes it is value neutral. Because the example I was talking about was a game where we were trying to run a mystery using Hillfolk, and in that system, things can be generated int he setting and story by the players saying them in character (there is more to the system than this but that is a core element of it). We quickly discovered that this had implications in terms of solving a mystery. The session wasnt really about solving a mystery it was about playing exploring interpersonal drama and the solution to the mystery being generated during play, in a way that produced a very thrilling adventure that felt like it a Shaw Brothers movie like Bloody Parrot or something. It was a lot of fun and having an objective mystery probably would have hindered that fun (also there are ways to play the game this way and have an objective mystery that is in place). So I was just making this very simple distinction. I wasn't saying a more traditional CoC style mystery was better. I was saying it relied more on having an objective backstory that informed the scenario. And I don't think that is controversial. I also wasn't weighing in on other games. People took issue with and raised other systems that I had zero opinion on about this
 

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