D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[dave2008]

Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer are worst than the previous iterations.

That is an opinion, one shared by many, but definitely not a "fact." I was around for those originals, but they, like most of 2e, never really spoke to me. I really only got into those settings with 5e. And with a world of information at my finger tips I can go back (and have) and get the information about older versions pretty easily. In most chases I don't really find things have changed much (though there is a lot more lore), in some cases I have preferred the 5e version to the 2e original, and in a few cases I haver preferred the original version.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes Thaco the clown was everything wrong with the attitude of the current D&D Stewards. You don't have to understand D&D Conservatives. Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer are worst than the previous iterations. You just (Apparently) weren't around for the better version. You don't need to understand. You just have to deal with the consumer feedback the same how we have to deal with what we consider an awful art direction.

I am always amused how much Thaco gets under the skin of grognards. Thac0 has been the butt of jokes for 40 years. Older players found it inferior to the attack matrixes of 1e, newer fans hated how intuitive it is to add and then subtract for every hit. Upwards AC was a considered for 2e (and kiboshed for compatibility) because of how nonsensical it was. People made Thac0 jokes when Thac0 was in it's prime. But WotC had the gumption to mock the second most mocked mechanic in D&D history and every grognard already nursing a grudge found their knickers twisted and their pearls clutched in fake Kabuki outrage that WotC was impugning the honor of AD&D and the people who played it.

Honestly, even if WotC was making a light-hearted rib at a long mocked mechanic rather than a biting criticism of grognard players as grumpy fools, the fact the grognards looked at Thaco and saw themselves in him says more about the community than WotC. So I say if the clown shoes fit...

 

[AnotherGuy]

That has been my experience since about 2008 when I started frequenting this and WotC's old forum. It opened my eyes to how vastly different the game can be, and is, played by different groups. Across time and all editions.

This is how I feel too.
I think I do the 2e modules better justice now than if I had run them back when they were first published.

• I'm older, wiser and more experienced.
• The game has evolved, there are a lot more things I can use mechanically to create tension and offer decision points.
• I have more techniques available now, mechanics that I can pull from other systems.
• I can use orcs of Warcraft and I can use orcs of 1e to tell my stories. I'm not bound to either, but more ideas have been provided.
• I have a pipeline to the best RPG ideas around to run published modules/settings or provide challenges - the web.
• I have editions of differing or opposing lore on creatures and settings. I can use that to my advantage. Sages forever debating over the cosmology or creatures having a murky history is a well-loved trope.

In the 90's I felt somewhat restricted - to the lore, the published module...etc
The system tinkering was a lot harder and more cumbersome.

Man, things are just so much better for us now.
People my age who have gone through several editions with radical changes have had our minds opened because we've lived through these changes
Whether we like the current iteration or not or enjoy the artwork or not, I count ourselves so fortunate. I'm producing the best D&D content at the table these days. I'm not lacking anything.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am always amused how much Thaco gets under the skin of grognards. Thac0 has been the butt of jokes for 40 years. Older players found it inferior to the attack matrixes of 1e, newer fans hated how intuitive it is to add and then subtract for every hit. Upwards AC was a considered for 2e (and kiboshed for compatibility) because of how nonsensical it was. People made Thac0 jokes when Thac0 was in it's prime. But WotC had the gumption to mock the second most mocked mechanic in D&D history and every grognard already nursing a grudge found their knickers twisted and their pearls clutched in fake Kabuki outrage that WotC was impugning the honor of AD&D and the people who played it.

Honestly, even if WotC was making a light-hearted rib at a long mocked mechanic rather than a biting criticism of grognard players as grumpy fools, the fact the grognards looked at Thaco and saw themselves in him says more about the community than WotC. So I say if the clown shoes fit...

I can't really agree with the philosophy here that, if you don't like the joke you deserve to be made fun of.

 

[TiQuinn]

I can't really agree with the philosophy here that, if you don't like the joke you deserve to be made fun of.

It’s not about not liking the joke, it’s about thinking the joke was ever about them at all.

 

[The Firebird]

I am always amused how much Thaco gets under the skin of grognards. Thac0 has been the butt of jokes for 40 years. Older players found it inferior to the attack matrixes of 1e, newer fans hated how intuitive it is to add and then subtract for every hit. Upwards AC was a considered for 2e (and kiboshed for compatibility) because of how nonsensical it was. People made Thac0 jokes when Thac0 was in it's prime. But WotC had the gumption to mock the second most mocked mechanic in D&D history and every grognard already nursing a grudge found their knickers twisted and their pearls clutched in fake Kabuki outrage that WotC was impugning the honor of AD&D and the people who played it.

Honestly, even if WotC was making a light-hearted rib at a long mocked mechanic rather than a biting criticism of grognard players as grumpy fools, the fact the grognards looked at Thaco and saw themselves in him says more about the community than WotC. So I say if the clown shoes fit...

I don't think the text about the clown is that bad. But I think folks who saw themselves in it did so because there is a history of people, including WotC, treating them as such. As the end of this post nicely illustrates.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I didn't read the Thaco the Clown as a joke on Grognards but more an inside joke for the older players amongst us to enjoy, in the same way in a decade or two we may see a Tavern called The Bloodied Warlord (I may just throw that in now for my campaign )

 

[Remathilis]

I can't really agree with the philosophy here that, if you don't like the joke you deserve to be made fun of.

There is a clear difference between naming an NPC after a 20+ year out of date and widely mocked mechanic and claiming it was done intentionally to piss off older fans. You have a right to laugh or not laugh at the joke. You don't to claim WotC is mocking you personally by including it. That's when you earn your clown shoes.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

There is a clear difference between naming an NPC after a 20+ year out of date and widely mocked mechanic and claiming it was done intentionally to piss off older fans. You have a right to laugh or not laugh at the joke. You don't to claim WotC is mocking you personally by including it. That's when you earn your clown shoes.

Maybe it’s people who work as clowns at children’s events that find it so offensive

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think the text about the clown is that bad. But I think folks who saw themselves in it did so because there is a history of people, including WotC, treating them as such. As the end of this post nicely illustrates.

Please show me evidence of WotC mocking or disparaging older fans. WotC bent over backwards to provide loving nostalgia for the old days. You don't get the 1980s cartoon kids and LJN action figures referenced (the latter in the same module as Thaco) by people who look down their noses at the olden days.