D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Micah Sweet]

Both of them were devastated until PHB 2 came out and made them playable again less than a year later. Complaint can be directed to @Snarf Zagyg

Cute. More mockery. I've rarely seen a table IME without a gnome at some point. My wife loves them.

 

[TiQuinn]

Clearly not a universally-shared opinion.

People cling to a lot of strange notions, kind of like the "moon landing wasn't real".

 

[Micah Sweet]

People cling to a lot of strange notions, kind of like the "moon landing wasn't real".

Is this the same thing? Pure imagination?

 

[The Firebird]

Yeah, that was made about the intro to the OD&D history book and the complaints were that Gary said some rather offensive things, and that shouldn't be representative of what the game is. The grognards in question were people who said "how dare you say someone is sexist because they say sexist things?" So I gotta agree with WotC on this. I don't think it would have been a good idea to republish those things without commentary.

So if that's the best you got, I'm sticking with my conclusion.

My point had nothing to do with whether the complaints are valid or whether the content should have been published without commentary.

In general, things rarely have get to the point where someone has to say "you are not welcome here" for people to not feel welcome, right? There's all kinds of subtle things, little comments, shibboleths that are or aren't used. If the standard for people proving that they are unwelcome is an explicit statement to that effect, then we will miss out on a lot.

And if we want to be empathetic and to create a welcoming environment it's incumbent on us to take people's complaints seriously. A flippant, dismissive attitude towards complaints is itself one of those subtle things.

In this context, I think it is instructive that a senior D&D designer is willing to apply the word "grognard" to people with concerns about the publication. Do all self-described grognards have that concern? Would any be upset about being conflated with people who do? Does that conflation indicate some lack of empathy for older gamers? Perhaps one could say: "I know know some people were upset about it, but I know many grognards who support the inclusion of that text".

Indicate some experience with the community. Indicate that you know its not monolithic.

 

[BrokenTwin]

I've played more than a few gnomes over the years, and I loved the 4E gnome monster videos.

As to Thaco the clown, I liked him as well, though I can see how some folks might interpret him as mean spirited mockery. Personally it seemed more like a loving tongue in cheek homage, given that most modern gamers wouldn't even know what Thaco is.

 

[Remathilis]

My point had nothing to do with whether the complaints are valid or whether the content should have been published without commentary.

In general, things rarely have get to the point where someone has to say "you are not welcome here" for people to not feel welcome, right? There's all kinds of subtle things, little comments, shibboleths that are or aren't used. If the standard for people proving that they are unwelcome is an explicit statement to that effect, then we will miss out on a lot.

And if we want to be empathetic and to create a welcoming environment it's incumbent on us to take people's complaints seriously. A flippant, dismissive attitude towards complaints is itself one of those subtle things.

In this context, I think it is instructive that a senior D&D designer is willing to apply the word "grognard" to people with concerns about the publication. Do all self-described grognards have that concern? Would any be upset about being conflated with people who do? Does that conflation indicate some lack of empathy for older gamers? Perhaps one could say: "I know know some people were upset about it, but I know many grognards who support the inclusion of that text".

Indicate some experience with the community. Indicate that you know its not monolithic.

I for one think the people who complained about the 50th anniversary handling of Gary's words SHOULD be unwelcomed. They can go play Lamentations of the Flame Princess if they are so upset about sexism and other prejudice being called out in older gaming. I'm not getting into the Paradox of Tolerance. Good riddance.

 

[Remathilis]

Cute. More mockery. I've rarely seen a table IME without a gnome at some point. My wife loves them.

Seriously dude, do you get angry every time someone makes fun of gnomes on this board? The sheer amount of classic settings that genocided them? Your finding things to get mad at for the sake of being mad.

 

[Azzy]

Please show me evidence of WotC mocking or disparaging older fans. WotC bent over backwards to provide loving nostalgia for the old days. You don't get the 1980s cartoon kids and LJN action figures referenced (the latter in the same module as Thaco) by people who look down their noses at the olden days.

Especially considering that the lead D&D team is composed of those that played D&D in the TSR years. The idea that they were making fun of grognards is dumb.

 

[The Firebird]

I for one think the people who complained about the 50th anniversary handling of Gary's words SHOULD be unwelcomed. They can go play Lamentations of the Flame Princess if they are so upset about sexism and other prejudice being called out in older gaming. I'm not getting into the Paradox of Tolerance. Good riddance.

Well, ok. You see how easily we shift between "Please show me evidence of WotC mocking or disparaging older fans" and "those people SHOULD be unwelcomed"?

Do you think everyone who thought the later Facebook post about not listening to grognards showed a lack of empathy for certain gamers, also thought the 50th anniversary handling was bad? I do not think these groups are identical. I offer myself as proof.

I think it's difficult to target who you want to make feel unwelcome that precisely. If you decide group A should get the boot, then people in group B who don't hold the views of A but come from a similar culture are going to perceive some hostility.

 

[Umbran]

What can I say? I'm a complicated guy.

And it is fine if you are complicated.

But, if the complication is on your side of things, holding other people responsible for not threading the needle isn't particularly fair.